They should be required to release drivers such that massive e-waste wasn’t generated suddenly. I mean, why does the government allow a software company to own an monopolize the hardware? Hello Google! Good luck 🤞 with the monopoly assholes!
If Linux didn’t exist, we would actually end up with a lot of e-waste, and I mean a fuck ton of it. And it’s all thanks to you, Microsoft.
Hell, Linux does exist, and people just don’t wanna use it because they’re so used to Windows that anything else is basically as steep of a learning curve as a literal cliff. And to those people I say: “just add some mint on it and life will be easy. Maybe even drizzle some cinnamon on it as well”
Linux is in a weird spot, there is a valley you must not be in with it.
If you are a non-technical person who needs only a browser and solitaire, it’s perfect.
If you are a highly technical person, it’s great.
If you’re just in between, you are fucked.
Started using linux mint 22 since 2 months great experience. Difficult with some software with wine winetricks and bottles and stuff. I’m not in any tech field. Learnt from YouTube. Still more to learn… But it’s fun to figuring things out and chatgpt
I’ve installed Linux mint cinnamon on some PCs for other people. It’s okay. I still run into errors and difficulties but for your average non techie person it might work if someone else gets them started.
That alone is a great introduction to Linux.
The only reason I’m on 10 with my main pc is because the 7th gen intel in there isn’t compatible with win11. I have another pc that is 7th gen, which I put windows 11 on and there is just something weird about it. When I do anything on that machine it doesn’t do it immediately, it sits for a few seconds before actions are done. Really aggravating. Clicking on a program on the taskbar takes a few seconds before it opens. File explorer, firefox browser, settings pane, … Once programs are running it’s fine to use said programs, but I wonder what they did to make it feel this way.
I have Linux on both machines as primary OS and they are super snappy, it’s not the hardware.
How much RAM do the systems have? 8gb? The delay may be in the system making room in ram for the program. Win11 is so ram hungry. It’s stupid.
Yeah it’s convincing people that Windows 11 is actually good
Three years ago, I bought my wife a laptop with Windows 10 to replace her 10yo windows 7 machine.
It had hardware issues out of the box, and went in on two repairs. It works fine now, AFAIK.
But, she still doesn’t trust it, and she doesn’t think that she can move her Adobe CS6 license over to it…
I even bought her the affinity suite.
I’m starting to think she’ll never move on from Windows 7.
I think the major browsers stopped supporting it sometime during the last year, so my best hope is that some included certificates will eventually make her favourite websites stop working. That has to force her over to something more recent… right?
I use arch, btw.
up vote for arch.
I also use arch btw.
Me too
https://github.com/win32ss/supermium
Here is a relatively up to date Chromium fork that supports Windows XP and newer (I am not affiliated with the project btw)
I’ll keep that secret from her 😅
I use Win10 for one single program only and I’m currently testing on how to take that machine offline, but still be accessible locally. So far all I got is a blacklist regex in pihole. Blocking internet access to that machine via my router does not work for me, as I dual boot that machine with Linux for gaming. Tips per DM are very welcome actually.
Make Linux use a random MAC address, then block the physical MAC in the DHCP section of the router’e configuration. This will make Windows unablento recieve an IP address while Linux will be able to get ahold of one.
If windows uses tandom mac addresses, the feature should be able to be turned off.
Or, simply disable the network interfaces in Windows’ control panel. I’ve never seen Windows reenable a network card by itself.
Two options:
- Change the DNS and gateway so they’re pointing to 0.0.0.0
- Give the Windows install a static IP or lease, and block that IP on the router
Static IP on the windows machine in a jail’d subnet, if you still want to be able to access it from the LAN but don’t want it to have internet access.
If you’re happy with it not having any kind of network access (I’m not sure if when you say ‘locally’ you mean just physically, or it needs LAN as well), just disable the network adapter in windows.
Maybe have a script change your local IP address? You could for instance change your IP after logging into Linux and change before powering off.
Well fuck Win 11, its a fucking downgrade. At Win 10 EOL I’m going back to linux.
You and the rest of Lemmy.
There are dozens of us!
Going back? What does that mean? Why would I switch distros on Win 10 EOL?
Practically speaking, 10 vs 11 barely makes a difference.
The ads, AI garbage and spyware do though.
It’s funny, people said the exact same thing about Windows 10. It had ads and spyware. It also had Cortana, the AI garbage of its time. Consumers will never learn. Can’t wait for Windows 12 to also be seen as the one where Microsoft has ruined Windows for real this time.
I hate 10. I’d rather have 7 again. It really sucks being forced to change OS when it’s a bad switch, sucks even worse when it’s because there’s no choice.
I remember the day I built my PC and realized the only Windows OS most new games would run on was 10. So much bloat and useless crap, so many intuitive features gone or moved to obtuse places.
Microsoft is really good at enshittifying things and has been for the last decade or so. If only it wasn’t about the money.
At the risk of being unpopular, I think a lot of what people perceive as unintuitive or worse in terms of settings and OS features is just change. I’m on Enterprise Windows 11 at work and I wouldn’t willingly go back to Windows 10.
I think because it’s Enterprise I’m dodging a lot of the worst of it - ads, telemetry, surprise updates, etc - but the unified settings are better once you learn them, tabbed File Explorer is better, dark mode switching is way better - there’s plenty to like.
I want to see the rise of the Linux desktop as much as anyone, but implying Windows 11 is all bad isn’t that fair an assessment.
I stopped following 11 news after they cancelled the native android framework, only thing that got me excited since a BlueStacks installation gets huge extremely fast, I’m not going.
I’m just waiting for the EOL of window 10 to see which of the following will happen:
- Many PCs will stop getting updates, people don’t care
- Many PCs will be replaced for windows 11
- Turns out people already have replaced their PCs due to other reasons
- Microsoft removes the hardware requirements
- People switch to another OS
- People just don’t buy a home PC anymore
- ???
- Profit???
I’ll save you the wait. It’s 1 with quite a bit of 6.
Normal people just don’t need PCs that much any more. Nearly everything that people did on a PC you can do on a phone.
If you can’t do it on a phone, then it’s usually called work, and employers can replace things as needed. Although we’ve still got customers using variants of Windows XP, so don’t hold your breath. Some employers just aren’t beholden to higher ups that demand security audits.
All those numbers will happen at the same time, at different proportions.
6 is becoming increasingly more common. Anecdotally, almost all of the gamers I know use consoles and have a phone for all of their “computer needs.” One of my friends probably wouldn’t even use his if it weren’t for VR Chat.
I’m a computer gamer but my kids like Xbox…they’re switching to Linux steam big picture mode.
240 millions PC will become e-waste if Win10 reaches EoL
EoL doesn’t mean it will stop completely; people will probably keep using it till they can’t anymore, like pc becoming too slow or their home banking site not working.
Realistically it will live for as long as Google Chrome still works and sites don’t start getting picky about TLS 1.3.
I’ve got an Asus eeePC running WinXP. It’s air-gapped and the wi-fi is disabled in BIOS. All it does is play music, connected to dumb speakers. I update the music periodically via USB. Remarkably reliable and long-lived hardware.
Sounds like homelabber paradise is headed for eBay
My bet is that they are gonna surrender and will remove restriccions to W11. I doubt that a non-it person gonna install Linux, at least that, some companies decided to resell old~ computers with linux preinstalled that’s the only way
My money is on MS kicking the can down the road and adding another year or two to the support last minute, then not fixing any of the issues with 11.
The paid extended security update program is going to run until 2028, and Windows 10 IoT Enterprise 2021 LTSC is going to have extended support all the way until 2032.
They have stated that ESU is going to be available to consumers as well, though not for how much - but somewhere between the $61 of the commercial, and $1 (really) of the education license, with the price doubling every year.
1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 Or won’t take long before it gets too expensive at that rate
1, 2, 4. Then it’s 2028 and ESU ends. No idea how the pricing for the IoT long term support thing is done though.
- ✅
Or Win10 IoT LTSC till 2032
I don’t see the os switch happening unless microsoft stops existing in its entirety.
Abandoning home PCs could be a thing I guess, but i feel like that would happen either way for these people
I doubt the os switch is happening too, some will probably switch but that will be a small amount, either they get Linux or afaik all other “popular” options require new hardware anyways (Macos)
I think many will just stay on windows 10 if their hardware doesn’t support 11 but ehh
Difficult to say, that’s why I’m waiting on the EOL for headlines like “millions of pcs vulnerable due to missing updates” or “maybe we were a little hard on crowdstrike”
This is one of those things where home users just default to PC = Windows. But apps are all online now. Probably 99% of the time all people need is a browser. Yeah some people think they have to have MS Office or some other niche windows program, but I consider myself a power-user and the only apps I open on my PC are Games, Discord, IntelliJ, VSCode, and then maybe fool around with local AI stuff. Photos and stuff are usually on our phones, but they can also all be backed up to the cloud from a computer easily enough.
I’ve already switched over to Linux because all of that stuff already works. (Caveat: I also have a PS5 for most gaming).
Most people just need someone to install Linux Mint or whatever and they wouldn’t even notice the difference. The only thing really slowing Linux adoption is folks who don’t want to field support calls from their friends and family.
Linux has been gaining market share, it’s at 4.5% or so, it’s not much but just until recently it never even hit 3%
Maybe Valve has something to do with it but who knows… I think we will see a bigger jump and it will start being as common as os x or something… I plan to switch and have been trying out different things
I mean, they could solve it by not making the mandatory successor an ad-laden, AI-infested, personal data harvesting, privacy-nightmare shit show. That would be a start. And also relax whatever the artificial requirement is that makes a lot of Win10 machines incompatible with 11.
Windows 10 is already an ad-laden, AI-infested, personal data harvesting, privacy-nightmare shit show. The problem with 11 is the ridiculous hardware requirements.
Windows 10 is trash and has always been. Windows 7 was the last good Windows, and I would still use it if it had security updates and DX12 support (I obviously mainly use Linux, but my gaming PC is on Windows, and no, some games I play and software I use 100% do not work on Linux).
Probably is. I use Linux for everything and only use Win10 at work on a VM with enterprise/LTSB version, so I’ve been shielded from most of its enshittification.
You can bypass the requirements since yeah, they were always artificial. I believe Rufus has an option when creating Win11 install USBs to remove the TPM and other requirements.
But then again, it’s nice, because all I need to make sure Microsoft doesn’t secretly update my Win10 machine in the night to Win11 is to turn off the TPM in the BIOS.
But then you won’t receive any updates if you use unsupported hardware to run Win 11
Well, not gonna get updates on 10 either, so is same-same
You can bypass the requirements
Not all of them. Windows 11 stopped booting with Update 24H2 on CPUs that don’t support the Instruction POPCNT. But that’s only an issue for really old CPUs like Intel Core 2 Duo and AMD Athlon 64 X2
For a bit more context than “really old”: I had an Intel Core 2 Duo in 2009.
Another angle: Those were some of the first dual-core x86 processors, released 2006 and 2005 respectively. (Intel had the Pentium D as its first in 2005).
I don’t remember which I had for sure. I’m leaning more towards Core 2 Duo. It was my first PC, I was 12 and built it with my father.
I also got my first computer around then. I saved up for ages and bought the first gen Intel MacBook with an Intel Core Duo (2 cores, no hyperthreading). I still have that laptop somewhere… It blew my mind it could run Windows, and Windows laptops couldn’t compare at the time.
You can bypass the requirements since yeah, they were always artificial.
I think bypassing these checks would eventually render your PC vulnerable? for example, bitlocker support being void for computers that relies on TPM 2.0
There is no home-user need to run bitlocker. There’s dozens of alternatives, that do not rely on TPM, that are just as effective, and that you really should be using anyways since they aren’t controlled by M$.
I see, thanks
If you need encryption, veracrypt probably still works.
Rufus has that option, I’ve used it myself to update to Win11 because I didn’t have a motherboard with TPM at the time.
Also wanna mention, the reason I updated was mostly because I thought Win10 was kinda ugly and I think Win11 was a huge update in that regard and also because of security reasons, since Win10 won’t receive any more updates in the near future. At the end of the day, I can count on one hand how often I boot Windows in a year (I almost exclusively use Linux), so I don’t really care about all the Win11 bullshit anyway.
Having used both, doesn’t 11 have the same level of ads as 10 did? It seems like it’s really only OneDrive ads if you don’t use it if anything?
Maybe? I just said in another comment that I am pretty much exclusively Linux. I only occasionally use a W10 VM at work, and it’s enterprise/LTSB so I don’t get a lot of that junk.
100 point top thread based on the second and third hand opinions of a Windows non-user really sums up the quality of this discussion lol
Most Windows-hating threads on Lemmy in a nutshell tbh.
Every thread on lemmy is a windows hating thread by default :D
I’ve lost count of the amount of posts and comment threads on here about “all the horrible ads and spyware” where the solution was to flip literally a single switch in Settings, Personalization.
Nope, they wont. Micro$oft only cares money rather than basic OS for everyday and professional tasks
They’ve been adding spyware and ads into W10 so it’s not the money. They could easily add all W11 ads/spyware into 10 with an update. Older CPUs have several hardware vulnerabilities unrelated to the TPU required by W11.
IMO, they should add a startup message listing the hardware vulnerabilities of the installed CPU and leave it up to the customer.
Windows 11 has more spyware and its more ens***tificated
Yes but that could be added in a W10 update just like they’ve already done with previous W10 updates.
Windows 11 = O.S. Ima Ad-Laden. Coincidence? I think not…
Microsoft has a Windows 11 problem. Staying on Windows 10 is a symptom.
They only care money. Not their users (expect buisness users who stuck M$'s walled garden and pour millions, if not billions to it).
That problem is that there isn’t a better version (not that it was peak in the first place anyway…)
If there was ever a time for valve to push advertising out for the steam deck and steamOS it’s now. The final piece of the gaming puzzle is anticheat. If valve gets the proprietary anticheat makers on board then it’s all over. Every major hurdle would’ve been overcome, but games like valorant and call of duty still don’t work because of vanguard and ricochet.
With how terrible windows handhelds are, imagine how awesome it would be for those cod players to be able to play a round of warzone on the toilet? I joke, but seriously, that’s the demographic that needs to adopt a platform like the steam deck. That’s the barrier valve has to overcome, and I’m worried they just don’t care or something even more legally gray is happening, like Microsoft giving game devs incentive to use proprietary anticheat or to just not flip that EAC flag in their code.
Roblox still doesn’t have native support : /
I answered someone here some months ago that they were testing out a native Linux client, don’t have the link right now but you should be able to find it.
Sober works well enough.
And unless you’re 12, what are you doing?
Continue living in your bubble. Between it and Fortnite, you capture a sweeping plurality of all computer game players.
I know it’s not a hardware compatibility problem. People just don’t want ads/tracking/AI bullshit, a removed control panel, settings that are hard to find/hidden, etc.
All intel processor 8th gen+ (and even some 7th gen IIRC) are win11 compatible, motherboard have TPM2 for years, even my intel 6th gen MB have TPM2.0.
Next year the intel 8th gen will have 8 years, people have PC/laptop more recent than that. Problem is that win10 will not get security updates and all.
I’m using MX Linux BTW.
My 80+ year old parents don’t care about ads or AI. They just want a working PC, and W11 won’t install on the cheap machine they got a few years ago. They’re not going to buy a new one because this works perfectly fine.
And yes they tried Linux for several years, but went back to Windows because it was just too much hassle and not compatible with too many things.
It absolutely is a hardware problem.
Most people don’t care or even know that it is AI/ad-infested. I’ve seen people just fighting through pop-up on multiple websites they use. When ci fronted by me, they just said that they have “tunnel vision” and don’t care.
It’s not a hardware compatibility problem for you or people who have reasonably new computers. However, for the last decade or so, computers have kind of stagnated and old computers are still very functional, something I couldn’t have said a decade or two ago.
I’m typing this on a ThinkPad x201 which was released in 2010. TBF, I’ve updated it as much as I can (8GB of RAM and an SSD), it’s running Linux Mint because Windows drags, and even then it’s getting tired.
My Spouse’s laptop is an Acer with a 5th gen i3. A couple years ago, she was complaining it was getting a bit slow, so I threw an SSD in it and now she’s happy with how it runs Windows 10, and I’m sure it would run Windows 11 fine if a TPM2.0 chip wasn’t required.
It’s forced obsolesces for a hardware requirement most home users are never going to use.
6th gen intel and 1st gen ryzen run perfectly fucking fine still.
My parents are using a 3rd gen i7 and it works fine. My brother has a few computers, one is a 2nd gen intel, but I think he put Linux on that one. My home server was running on my 4th gen i7 until I upgraded it to my second gen Ryzen earlier this year after I upgraded my gaming.
CPUs from around 2005 onward are all perfectly usable IMO for the purposes of x86 desktops. As long as it’s got x86_64, SSE4 and at least two available threads. I would even wager that Pentium 4 hyperthreaded models (Wolfdale?) are still acceptable if we’re really pushing it.
I’m currently using a trick on my Windows 11 work machine to get the old UI for file explorer by going through the control panel and going up a directory.
I’ll be so pissed the day they strip it out, because their new design language is ridiculously slow and terrible for the sake of “cleanliness.”
I still got a Ryzen 1600, that would be just fine for when my flatmate needs a PC for working remotely, but his company reqires Windows 11 :-(
I’m still gaming on my 1600X, although it is starting to show its age
Many years ago, I attended a Windows XP launch event. The Microsoft presenter had the perfect line to describe how MS views this:
“Why should you upgrade to Windows XP? Because we’re going to stop supporting Windows 98!”This was said completely unironically and with the expectation that people would just do what MS wanted them to do. That attitude hasn’t changed in the years since. Win 10 is going to be left behind. You will either upgrade or be vulnerable. Also, MS doesn’t care about the home users, they care about the businesses and the money to be had. And businesses will upgrade. They will invariably wait to the last minute and then scramble to get it done. But, whether because they actually give a shit about security or they have to comply with security frameworks (SOX, HIPAA, etc.), they will upgrade. Sure, they will insist on GPOs to disable 90% of the Ads and tracking shit, but they will upgrade.
Because we’re going to stop supporting Windows 98!
At least there was a technical reason there, that Microsoft was merging the two separate codebases for consumer Windows and enterprise Windows, and building on the better NT codebase than the 95->98->ME codebase.
And XP was actually way better for the main thing that we were going to be using computers for going forward: networked with the actual internet.
Windows 11? Can’t see any paradigm shift in how the operating system itself is supposed to work, at least not on anything that actually makes a difference in a favorable way.
Ya, in fairness to MS, Windows XP was a good release (post SP1, like most “good” MS releases). But, the fact is that MS is going to push the latest version, regardless of how ready it is for use. MS was hot for folks to switch to Windows ME. And holy fuck was that a terrible OS. MS also did everything short of bribery to get folks to switch to Vista (anyone remember Windows Mojave?). The “upgrade, or else” mantra has always been their way. Not that I blame them too much, it does need to happen. It just sucks when the reason for the new OS is more intrusive ads and user tracking.
I think you’re wrong. Microsoft won’t end support on a system over or around half the world’s pc’s run on.
They’re just pulling a scare tactic right now. Before the security end date of win 10 is up, they’ll announce continued support for another 2 years. They’re just trying to push 11 and right now they’re bluffing.
Imagine a company with the power to break half the worlds computers with a business decision.
If it does actually happen next year, I look forward to the probably 10% gain or better to Linux. Mint will probably get the lions share.
Businesses (at least the larger ones) replace their hardware every few years anyway. They don’t care whether their new Optiplexes run Windows 10 or 11 and most hardware bought since 2022 probably has Windows 11 installed already, probably all since 2020 supports it. So there’s hardly a problem here. (Btw I’m taking the management view here, I know that it’s a pain to actually deploy, but that doesn’t matter to management).
Yes your right. Users only care if their software can run. Most could care less what OS is running under the hood.
