• sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    2
    ·
    10 months ago

    Trying to convince people to do something that’s not in their interest isn’t a crime, that’s marketing.

    gambling

    Gambling is regulated, but only to the point of ensuring the game is fair, as in the customer understands the terms of the game as well as their risks. People aren’t prevented from gambling, and institutions aren’t prevented from marketing their games.

    The same should be true in this case. People should understand the chances of getting something good from a loot box or whatever, as well as understand that the digital things they buy only exist for as long as the game is supported (or some other window of time).

    Children cannot consent, so they cannot engage in gambling. That’s why it’s illegal, and also why that should extend to digital purchases.

    I have zero patience

    And I have zero patience for “the government knows best” type arguments.

    I should be allowed to do pretty much anything that doesn’t negatively impact others, and that includes making stupid decisions. However, that only applies to adults, children can’t consent, so they should absolutely be prevented from doing things that could harm them.

    • mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      10 months ago

      That’s the most erudite “you just don’t like it!” I’ve seen so far, but it’s still dismissive horseshit.

      Understanding cannot help. This is active, weaponized, evolving manipulation. Businesses are taking people’s money for things with zero value. That is a scam. It doesn’t have customers, it has victims.

      All appearance of value is made-up by the people taking your money.

      This is ruining an entire entertainment industry. It affects all of us! Video games as a product are being threatened by this bottomless pit. A sign saying “do not plummet if you’re under eighteen” is aggressively failing to solve the problem.

      • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        10 months ago

        No, the value is in the experience, and that can vary from person to person. Having a digital item that others don’t absolutely has value for those that buy it.

        It’s not a scam if they’re getting exactly what was advertised. If I buy a cosmetic item, I’m not getting scammed unless I don’t get that cosmetic item. If I get a loot box with a 1% chance of something good, I’m not getting scammed if I don’t get it unless the actual chance is lower than 1%. If I’m getting exactly what was advertised and it’s a consensual transaction, it’s not a scam, but it could absolutely be a stupid purchase.

        This is ruining an entire entertainment industry. It affects all of us!

        I agree, but just because the majority does something stupid doesn’t mean it should be illegal, it just means the majority is stupid and we probably need to improve our education system.

        I get it, it really sucks, but banning something you don’t like is a form of tyranny since you’re essentially saying “this lifestyle choice is invalid.” Perhaps there can also be some controls against dark patterns to limit manipulation (i.e. would a reasonable person understand the risks, know how to avoid it, etc), but you should be allowed to make stupid choices.

        I don’t gamble or play predatory games (except MtG: Arena, but I’m F2P because screw MTX). It’s really not hard to resist, so I don’t think it rises to the level of needing to be banned. There should probably be some changes, and starting by banning those games for minors is a good start.

        • mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          10 months ago

          we probably need to improve our education system.

          Hey look, the red flag for any discussion of systemic issues, guess we’re done here. Blame the victims and cross your fingers that the as-yet-unborn generation can be saved from this thing that’s affecting the hell out of people right now and didn’t really exist a decade ago. Why would government do anything about that?

          something you don’t liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike

          Fucking hate everyone who reduces anything to this infuriating garbage. This is uncivil behavior - this is a personal attack - this is trolling. Telling someone where to shove it would not be.

          Perhaps there can also be some controls against dark patterns to limit manipulation

          … hypocrite.

          • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            10 months ago

            Blame the victims

            I’m not blaming victims, I’m saying there aren’t any victims because they made a conscious choice knowing exactly what they’re buying. You can’t just call yourself a victim when you do something stupid if there was no deceit in what you’re getting.

            hypocrite

            How so? Dark patterns manipulate what you think you’re getting, or what you need to do in order to get what you want.

            For example, I’ve seen crap like a window popping up that says, “Buy gems to play more! $5 for 10, $8 for 20, or $15 50!” with no cancel, close, etc bottom. However, if you click outside the window, it disappears and you can play the game like you have been. That’s a clear example of a dark pattern that’s implying strongly that you need to pay to continue playing, and that should be illegal.

            But if the transaction is clear (spend $X to get Y), and you get exactly what’s advertised, I don’t see that as something that should be banned. It shouldn’t be illegal to market bad products for bad prices, it should only be illegal to misrepresent the product.

            That said, the standard for minors should be much higher, and should disallow any chance-based purchase or anything related to addictive behavior. But that standard shouldn’t apply to adults of sound mind (i.e. people without a mental disability that impacts ability to consent, such as being slow).

            • mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              10 months ago

              Calling the grindstone of continuous manipulation “conscious choice” - when YOU propose outlawing some of these abusive mechanisms - is blame. Why the hell would you discuss outlawing any portion of this, if you don’t recognize people are being harmed?

              Dark patterns manipulate what you think you’re getting, or what you need to do in order to get what you want.

              Hello, and welcome to the point.

              Games make you value arbitrary nonsense. That is what makes them… games. Literally fundamental. When a game makes all its money by manipulating people into throwing money at bullshit, over and over and over and over, the entire rest of the game is just a gaudy funnel toward that “choice.”

              Making you think you wanted it is how it works.

              • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                10 months ago

                discuss outlawing any portion… if you don’t recognize people are being harmed

                Because there’s a difference between a scam and a stupid, conscious choice. The former misrepresents or replaces what you’re buying, whereas the latter does not. The former should be illegal, the latter should not.

                Games make you value arbitrary nonsense

                That’s totally different from what I’m talking about.

                If you actually value the thing and want it, you’re not a victim for buying it, you’re a customer. If you’re buying it because it seems required (and it’s not), that’s a scam. Dark patterns influence both behaviors, but that doesn’t automatically mean all dark patterns should be illegal, it really depends on the details.

                I think we should treat it similarly to cigarettes: put a bunch of warning labels on it and prevent children from buying it, but don’t make it illegal for consenting adults.

                • mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  10 months ago

                  Need and want are equally artificial. It’s a game. And these games will use whichever lever works best, to subvert your rational decision-making and maximize how much money you throw at them, for the absolute least quantity of effort.

                  All apparent value is arbitrary. There is no relevant difference between cajoling people into craving a different-colored hat, versus some scimitar with bigger numbers. The mechanisms of this manipulation are identical.

                  But you will never change anything by attacking those mechanisms - because developers will find new ones. They already have. They already do. “Lootboxes” became a dirty word, finally, but do you think this bullshit makes less money now? Nah: they squeeze people for additional billions, doing the same old bullshit with new language.

                  They make the fishhook gentle enough that people defend the taste of the bait.

                  • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    10 months ago

                    They make the fishhook gentle enough that people defend the taste of the bait.

                    That may be true, but that doesn’t mean it should be illegal.

                    Laws shouldn’t be crafted to eliminate stupid decisions, laws should penalize and discourage fraud and other direct forms of harm. Saying “you should buy this” isn’t fraud in any way, provided the customer gets what they paid for, even if that thing is worthless (provided they were fully aware that it’s worthless). People put a lot of value in vanity, and they’re usually using money to stroke their own ego.

                    they squeeze people

                    And that’s totally fine, provided the transaction was consensual and the product wasn’t misrepresented. It’s disgusting and I will never work for or purchase from a company that does that, but I don’t think it should be outlawed. We should absolutely make information public about how these things work so people can be informed and choose to make different choices.