• Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlOPM
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    1 year ago

    Nothing against people who prefer meat substitutes. But I do think they should be brave and just abandon meat altogether. If you keep relying on meat substitutes, you haven’t let go of meat entirely, I found it easy to get back to meat eating.

    • Vegasimov@reddthat.com
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      1 year ago

      You’re chatting out your ass, this is like saying lesbians shouldn’t use dildos in case they go back to fucking men

      Complete ignorance of the thing you’re talking about

      • muddi [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        That is not at all what this is like, completely ignorant metaphor

        Imagine someone addicted to eating their poop. Perhaps they are reforming their ways, and for some time they take half measures like eating smelly chili. Eventually they realize their unhealthy fixation isn’t really overcome by this, so they move onto food that doesn’t resemble poop, like a salad maybe

        • TheCaconym [any]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          No, their metaphor was not ignorant at all.

          Animal products have good taste for most people. The issue with them is not their taste, or the actual act of consumption of them, it’s the fact that their production necessarily involves the torture and killing of sapient beings.

          If you can have “meat” without such effects (so, those fake vegan “meats”), then there is nothing wrong with it at all (I still prefer most of the time my rice, beans, tofu and TSP if only due to the cost but again, nothing wrong with it, quite the contrary).

          • muddi [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            No, their metaphor was not ignorant at all.

            I was half-joking, but yes it was ignorant? Lesbians don’t choose their sexuality, but people do choose to be vegan. There is an ignorance of sexuality and diet there. Also, people do try going vegan, eat some fake meat and cheese, and eventually go back to eating meat because they still crave meat in itself. This does happen. This is also related to those people who sneak in or revert to eating meat because of some cultural or family tradition, or peer pressure from friends. One vegan I knew who was going on for 25 years ate a steak to impress his business friends instead of speaking up to say he didn’t want to eat at a meat-only restaurant. Take a look at my other comments here, I am speaking about this topic at the social level, not how individuals like the taste of meat or fake meat.

            there is nothing wrong with it at all

            Yeah I know, I have been saying that. This is not a moral argument. This is a rational one, and one perhaps from a medical or public health perspective: the cultural desire to obtain “meat” as a thing in itself is the cause for the demand of meat or meat alternatives. It’s great that under capitalism that solutions can be provided via the market and supply-and-demand, whatever, but it doesn’t address the reason why there is a demand in the first place.

            How I know it’s a cultivated desire: it doesn’t exist across cultures. Hell it doesn’t exist within the western fake meat market itself: how much fake seafood do you see engineered out there? Or exotic meats ie objects perfectly engineered to mimic dog, cat, or even human meat? I’m sure human taste buds can enjoy long pork, real or fake. Yet basically no one is asking for this right?

            • how much fake seafood do you see engineered out there?

              Crab sticks are usually fake, but generally, fish is harder to immigrate accurately than other meats, and there’s less demand for it since people in the west don’t generally eat tons of fish anyway.

              Less demand for real fish means less demand for imitation fish, though there is apparently a company somewhere making lab grown salmon and tuna.

    • seitanic@lemmy.sdf.org
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      1 year ago

      Bravery has nothing to do with it. It tastes good, and there’s no harm to any animals. So why not eat it? Denial for the sake of denial is not a virtue.

      If you keep relying on meat substitutes, you haven’t let go of meat entirely, and it would be easy to get back to meat eating.

      That’s like saying that if you enjoy shooting people in video games, then you’re one step away from shooting people in real life. I’ve been eating fake meats for almost a decade now, and I’ve never been tempted to eat real meat.

      I know how horrible and senseless factory farming is, and I have images of the slaughtered seared into my memory from vegan documentaries. Why would I go back to that when I can have substitutes that are just as good, if not better?

      • muddi [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        Good job but not everyone has the mental fortitude you have displayed. I know plenty of people who tried going vegan, ate the fake meat and egg stuff, and just went back to the real stuff for the taste

        Anyways it’s not about the individual level, it’s more the social ie the social ingraining to have the form and experience of meat contributes to the “culture” and demand of meat

        • Saeculum [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          The fake stuff (and cultivated meat for that matter) are getting closer to parity every year. You don’t go back to something “for the taste”, if the alternative you switched to offers a near identical experience.

          • muddi [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            Okay but we aren’t there yet and the vegans who I know who have broken their mental attachment to this meat “culture” have not even been tempted to go back once compared to those others

        • seitanic@lemmy.sdf.org
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          1 year ago

          Do you think that you could’ve gotten those people converted to an Indian diet, and they would’ve remained vegan? Getting people to go vegan in the first place is extremely difficult. Try getting them to go vegan and replace their diet with Indian food.

          • muddi [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            Yeah, if they were Indian. The culture around meat is different than in the West eg. some people only eat meat on a certain day or weekend. Even then, the approach is that meat is disgusting and needs to be cooked and spiced thoroughly before consuming anyhow. And there is already a long and popular tradition of simple alternatives to meat dishes like using potatoes or paneer (or “soy paneer” aka tofu to make it vegan)

            Again, my point is that it is not about the individual but the social ingraining and pressure around meat as a category in itself for individuals

            • Meat is generally spiced more heavily in warm climates because it spoils faster and hot spices both preserves meat by killing bacteria and disguise a certain degree of spoilage.

              I would be surprised if the trend towards hot spices in a country that is generally both warm and humid is because of a difference in palette rather than the reasons above.

      • Emma_Gold_Man@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        1 year ago

        I can’t really answer the question of why, but the sample set of people I know who switch to vegetarianism and veganism bears out that the ones who rely in fake meats much more frequently switch back than those who focus on learning to cook foods that don’t imitate meat.

        On the counterargument, I did miss cheese quite a bit, and learning to culture my own vegan cheeses hasn’t led to buying animal milk cheeses again, so ymmv

        • Fades@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Your anecdote is meaningless as your sample size is not statistically significant.

          • Emma_Gold_Man@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            1 year ago

            It wasn’t meaningless, and I went out of my way to make clear the sample size wasn’t statistically significant.

            The point was that the parent comment implied there was no reason to start eating meat again after making a moral choice not to. My anecdote shows that some people do anyway, therefore there must be a reason.

            That in my experience they tended to be the people who relied on meat substitutes was presented as an observation of interest, not as hard evidence of universal truth.

    • Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      1 year ago

      Nothing against people who prefer meat substitutes. But I do think they should be brave and just abandon meat altogether.

      Looking at someone not eating meat: you should stop eating meat.

    • Wage_slave@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Being called stupid and criticizing my decisions kept me from “being brave”

      Like “You’re not good enough until you are this much” bullshit. If that’s the attitude, then fuck no. Why do I wanna go even further into things if y’all are assholes right off the bat. Like, no. fuck you. If it’s this complicated then I am going to do what has been a life of hassle free eating. My guilt is very easily wiped away like that.

      • jope@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        I’m vegan and I eat plenty of fake meat. I’m vegan because I think it’s right, not because I dislike meat. Don’t listen to OP. You are good enough, and any reduction in the consumption of animal products is better than no reduction.

        I went through a long period of transition before cutting out animal produce entirely, but have now been vegan for a good few years.

        • Karyoplasma@discuss.tchncs.de
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          1 year ago

          I went through a long period of transition before cutting out animal produce entirely, but have now been vegan for a good few years.

          This is the way. It’s like a relationship: if you have to force it, it’s gonna be shit.

          I cut down on meat significantly in the past 3 years. I eat mostly vegetarian, fish once a week and meat every once in a while. Overall, my meat consumption decreased by about 90% which I call good enough and I don’t really have the intention to change that.

        • AnonStoleMyPants@sopuli.xyz
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          1 year ago

          Yeah same here. I like fake meat. I mean, if it tastes good and has no animal parts in it, it goes into my mouth. It’s not that complicated.

        • Wage_slave@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          I’ve been talking a bunch of shit out of annoyance. And there’s a bunch of posts echoing exactly what I was complaining about.

          Even getting called a liar.

          This is the only reasonable or polite response I’ve seen. Missed one maybe?

          So thanks. I really shouldn’t be painting the entire lifestyle with the same brush, because well here we are.

          So I’ll shut up, and say thanks. And for the record, my kid still makes me get the impossible patties. She’s not veg anything, so ita just cause they’re good and that on its own should be good enough. Not all is lost in my removed.

    • marx2k@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      If I’m at a barbecue and someone is grilling up impossible burgers, I’m not going to request they instead make a bowl of curry for me. Likewise when I grill for people.

    • pascal@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      Nothing against people who prefer meat substitutes

      That’s good.

      I do think they should be brave and just abandon meat altogether

      That’s bad.

      Now, firstly, thank you for defining a lot of people cowards.

      Secondly, while I like indian food, I like meat more. And I liked it since forever. If I can have the delicious taste of meat in my plate without killing an animal, that’s great. Fantastic! I’m eagerly waiting for lab crafted meat any day. I’m willing to pay it more than real meat, because I’m not fond of killing living beings to eat them. But if that’s not yet possible, I’d still have my steak and my hamburger.

    • apotheotic (she/her)@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      Right so, I have literally never eaten meat in my life. I was raised vegetarian. I still think plant based burger patties or sausages or whatever are delicious. Its literally just food. You gonna think that I’m “relying” on meat substitutes or “haven’t let go of meat entirely” when I haven’t even eaten meat before? :P

      Just let people enjoy things! Plant based “meat” doesn’t hurt anyone and its a great option to add to your choices of meals.

    • TheCaconym [any]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      it would be easy to get back to meat eating

      If it would “be easy” for you to get back to consuming animal products, it’s hard to imagine you’re vegan at all.