“Libs only vote and think that’s enough! You’re required to murder people to join the club!”
They’re right.
I wrote the title too hastily. I meant to say it doesn’t count as all for them, not that it’s enough.
Germany is closer than ever to a second fascist takeover, with the ruling CDU actively trying to normalize the AfD, and the latter now leading the polls, by far the highest they’ve ever been. They’ve also doubled their vote in the last election. So yes, antifascists did not win here
Nor are they antifascist by any means. In fact they love to put antifascists on watch lists, and cry in the media about the dangers of the radical left while ignoring years of nazis organizing to murder minorities.
Yeah remember when we all banded together and peacefully voted hitler and mussolini out?
If Hitler hadn’t been in office, do you imagine nothing would be different? Like they’d pluck that rabble-rousing failed artist off the street when Hindenburg died?
If Hillary had won, The Idiot would just be some fuckin’ guy. The same loudmouthed punchline he’d always been. The election was the only thing that gave him power - so not electing him would have stopped his atrocities.
When Biden was in, The Idiot was right back to being some fuckin’ guy. He got arrested. He was being federally prosecuted. He was facing unpardonable state charges. The election was the only thing keeping his fat ass out of jail.
If Harris had won, The Idiot would still be some fuckin’ guy. He couldn’t disappear people to foreign countries, from his couch.
Elections matter. Elections work. Elections are step one. If you just don’t put fascists in power, fascists tend not to have power. If you’re dumb enough to do it anyway - we did in fact peacefully vote out The Idiot. Remember? Biden won. By the skin of his teeth, thanks to our batshit stupid electoral system. Despite every effort to prevent, lie about, and then ignore the results. American democracy was strong enough that this liberal-bashing jibe actually happened - once.
The problem is we already elected him and now he’s going full fascist so everything you wrote was a waste of time.
‘This is what happened, so it’s the only thing that could possibly have happened!’
How many more votes do you need to jail a convicted felon⸮
When Biden was in, The Idiot was right back to being some fuckin’ guy. He got arrested. He was being federally prosecuted. He was facing unpardonable state charges. The election was the only thing keeping his fat ass out of jail.
Jesus Christ, for as often as libs compare Trump to Hitler i’m actually shocked at how little they actually know about that similarity.
Strawman.
Imagine if Trump had actually been sent to prison and had time and opportunity to write his own Mein Kampf.
He didn’t write his own autobiography.
What hypothetical outcome are you even proposing? ‘He’d grow his influence through stirring rhetoric?’ We’ve all been exposed to his tweets; he sounds drunk. ‘If we’d sent him to prison he’d be more powerful?’ He’s in the god damn white house.
We live in the worst-case scenario. No shit our institutions are not guaranteed to prevent what already happened, but could you stop pretending that means, whatever happened was inevitable? A system failing is a historic event. They tend to do the thing they’re for.
I cannot comprehend the fatalism in saying ‘preventing this could not have prevented this.’
What hypothetical outcome are you even proposing? ‘He’d grow his influence through stirring rhetoric?’ We’ve all been exposed to his tweets; he sounds drunk. ‘If we’d sent him to prison he’d be more powerful?’ He’s in the god damn white house.
No, I’m saying it’s a little silly to parade around trump losing an election and nearly going to prison as the system ‘working’ against a direct comparison of Hitler, who literally had both of those things happen to him too.
A political system defined by the breakdown of democracy and rule of law isn’t going to be stopped by democracy or rule of law. You have to look beyond those systems to understand why they failed, and I rarely see liberals acknowledge anything other than electoralism as being involved in the growth of fascist movements.
I cannot comprehend the fatalism in saying ‘preventing this could not have prevented this.’
Is this the strawman you were looking for? If preventing this doesn’t prevent this, then preventing it didn’t really prevent it, no? Lol, honestly, you can’t stop fascism with voting any more than you can stop a mugger by yelling ‘you can’t do that!’ at them. It’s literally a failure of democratic systems and law in order that’s supported by a populist movement. You have to address the populist element, otherwise all you’ve done is lit a fire and walked away.
This is the same fatalism over and over. You don’t even recognize the tense of saying, “could.”
“Preventing this doesn’t prevent this” is what you are saying. You start from the assumption every democracy has failed, and then assert, there is no possible way a not-yet-failed democracy could protect itself. Like nothing was ever real except for this very moment.
Hitler never got directly voted in by an election. Please go read history again.
Germans voted the NSDAP into power. You’re kinda splitting hairs here
I don’t even know what point you’re trying to make, Hitler essentially was the party, in the same way Trump essentially is the republican party now.
Indeed voting isn’t enough. The “centre” is France defends the police killing arabs and throwing grenades at crowd, the “left wing” in USA supported the genocide. If you think that’s enough you’re probably well off from a first world country
"you can’t vote fascists out of office
votes Fascists out of office
“Well uh still not good enough!”
Well, is it enough? Voting is good, but is it enough to defeat fascism? It wasn’t enough in the USA. It would be wonderful if voting was enough everywhere, but fascists don’t just accept the results of an election and give up their dreams of ruling over you.
It wasn’t enough in the USA.
Perhaps ironically, because people didn’t vote. Anti-electoralists/accelerationists oppose reform and incremental change.
Yes it is ironic. But even if ppl voted and we got the democrats. There’s still lots to do. The dems are still neoliberals who prioritise the wealth of the few over the lives of the many. They are just a little more moderated than the republicans at that.
So if you vote Dem and think “I’ve done all I can” you’re also part of the problem. Lasting serious change requires radical collective action. Voting isn’t enough. It’s just a tiny thing you should do aswell. The bulk of the effort stands outside it.
Voting is not how we get liberation. It’s how we occasionally slow down the machine that crushes people.
(Obligatory Fuck Hexbear for their support of Imperialist and Genocidal Regimes)
So if you vote Dem and think “I’ve done all I can” you’re also part of the problem. Lasting serious change requires radical collective action. Voting isn’t enough. It’s just a tiny thing you should do aswell. The bulk of the effort stands outside it.
Absolutely. It’s just a bare minimum for anyone serious about positive change.
Voter turnout has been relatively high in the past few elections. You could argue that the baseline was extremely low, and I agree with you that there is a concerted effort to suppress and discourage voting. But voting is not enough, because our system has been structured and modified to limit our options.
Voting is not enough but it is the minimum necessary.
It’s the “preheat oven” step to protecting freedom and democracy from tyrants. Like yes, do that, but don’t expect a soufflé to just spontaneously happen.
Very apt analogy.
The vast majority of people who don’t vote are not anti-electorialist, they are just apathetic/lazy
Correct. But The anti-electoralists are louder than the apathetic and discourage breaking out of that apathy.
I think it is more of a failure of the democrats. Harris simply did not get enough traction compared to Trump. The Democrat party was simply complacent and underestimated the power of the Republican party. They kind of just assumed everyone was going to vote Democratic when in really Trump worked very hard to swing the swing voters. Winning a US election is hard and you can’t just it on your butt and assume people will vote for you. Harris came into the game way to late and didn’t have much of a plan. She could’ve made something up like Trump does but instead she associated herself with unfixed issues.
Don’t care. Opposing nazis is a basic duty that all humans have. Refusing to do so is betrayal.
I think that’s hard to actually objectify. Ultimately free discussion should be encouraged as that’s the best way to put a stop to Authoritarianism. Authoritarianism is not right or left and can piggy back on both sides. Right now both sides are aren’t doing a great job of protecting democracy. The Democrats could be doing a lot more and the Republicans should speak up against Trump doing questionable things. Blind following and short term thinking are very bad for the future.
The more I read this comment the more irate I get.
It’s as if Liberals are only willing to uphold this (very sensible) standard when it’s their own political interests at stake, but have no interest or can’t be bothered to uphold it when it’s their own representatives who are refusing to oppose fascists.
Excusing a party who has far more agency in opposing fascism while having zero-tolerance for people who are themselves victims of a broken electoral system is fucking sociopathic.
Not a liberal, good try at attempting to remove responsibility from those abdicating their duty to humanity though. I excuse noone involved in enabling fascism.
A member of a right-wing neolib political party that cooperates with those actively working to install fascism and/or neo-feudalism and refuse to push back in any meaningful way? You’re partly responsible for the shit happening.
A member of a fascist/theocratic/neo-feudalist party? You’re directly responsible.
Non-voter due to apathy and/or ignorance and/or mis/disinformation? Forgiveable, if you put in some effort.
Non-voter/protest voter who refused to oppose fascism either for reasons of trying to boost one’s ego by being more “morally pure” or following the reprehensible religion that is accelerationism? Get fucked. You share responsibility and are no ally to vulnerable people of any sort.
Not a liberal
Didn’t say that you were.
I excuse noone involved in enabling fascism.
Get fucked. You share responsibility and are no ally to vulnerable people of any sort.
Weird that you don’t have that energy to the people actively enacting and collaborating with fascism. Nowhere on your list have you identified the level of responsibility for who’s job it is to represent their voters, and who’s job it is to campaign and advocate for their platform and put forward their vision to address our national crisis.
Fascist movements don’t happen in a vacuum, and the same conditions that lead rise to nazi’s also lead to the disillusionment of voters who have lost hope that democracy is incapable of reform at all. People resort to fascism for the same reason (that democracy cannot be reformed through democratic means, so they resort to violence and authoritarianism).
Democrats hold the entire blame, not just for collaborating with fascists domestically and abroad, but for creating the despare that lead people to give up on democracy.
The fact that you’re ire points only in one direction leads me to think you share that same contemptible abdication of responsibility as liberals do.
Get fucked
A member of a right-wing neolib political party that cooperates with those actively working to install fascism and/or neo-feudalism and refuse to push back in any meaningful way? You’re partly responsible for the shit happening.
You forgot the people who actively petitioned their party to lay down their fascist collaboration and voted as a member of that party. Even if you’re one of those people as I am, the fact that you’re giving cover to the cowards who claim to represent you makes you a coward, too.
Get fucked (that one was directed at you).
Didn’t say that you were.
I misinterpreted your meaning, I think. Too used to people reading a dissenting view and brushing it off as “lib”. Sorry about that.
The fact that you’re ire points only in one direction leads me to think you share that same contemptible abdication of responsibility as liberals do.
I think it is more related to being neurodivergent and being multiple lists of people that RFK Jr publicly stated that he wanted to send to forced labor camps, as well being close to LGBTQ+ people. Choosing not to oppose these nazis, willfully, feels like betrayal. Betrayal hits differently than actions of known malignancies.
You forgot the people who actively petitioned their party to lay down their fascist collaboration and voted as a member of that party. Even if you’re one of those people as I am, the fact that you’re giving cover to the cowards who claim to represent you makes you a coward, too.
I did forget to mention them. Mainly because I think that those are the people who are acting ethically and actually trying to use the available tools instead of attempting to force armed conflict (likely inevitable at this point) or inflate their egos.
Get fucked (that one was directed at you).
<3
think it is more related to being neurodivergent and being multiple lists of people that RFK Jr publicly stated that he wanted to send to forced labor camps, as well being close to LGBTQ+ people.
Wait I think I said something about this
are only willing to uphold this (very sensible) standard when it’s their own political interests at stake, but have no interest or can’t be bothered to uphold it when it’s their own representatives who are refusing to oppose fascists.
See what I mean? It’s appropriate to be angry. Righteous, even. But pretending as if opposing fascism is only important when it personally effects you is childish. Democrats were actively assisting in a fucking genocide, and somehow you don’t seem very angry with them for that culpability, let alone for crippling their own opposition campaign by doing so. There might be lots of reasons why your imagined non-voters chose not to vote for Kamala, but the huge one is right there in the issue you’re angry about.
Yes, Trump is objectively worse, no question. But Democrats have been teaching voters for fucking decades that it doesn’t matter what they want, they will only do what’s politically expedient - it’s their fucking fault so many people have lost sight of the importance of exercising what little democratic power they actually have.
Betrayal hits differently than actions of known malignancies.
It’s a double standard to expect people to acknowledge that very reasonable feeling when millions of people have been feeling that way about the democrats for fucking decades. Yea, it sucks that you were abandoned, but how incredibly selfish of you to make that the problem of the other people who’ve been abandoned long before you ever were.
Mainly because I think that those are the people who are acting ethically and actually trying to use the available tools instead of attempting to force armed conflict (likely inevitable at this point) or inflate their egos
The start of a very mature sentiment, undercut by putting arbitrary guardrails around what you personally find to be ‘ethical’ and an imagined motivation.
He is making good relations with Russia. That’s probably why
Crazy that the original post said nothing about what antifascists do or don’t do but people insist on projecting.
“Fascists aren’t gaining power. Antifascists are making a comeback”
The first sentence is necessary (but not sufficient) for beating fascism; the second is a statement of momentum.
Antifascism has existed as long as fascism, well before any guns were fired or wars were fought. It encompasses many different approaches to opposing fascism and isn’t even strictly a left-wing position (revolutionary vs counter revolutionary).
If you think the only viable playbook to beat fascism is revolutionary accelerationism, that’s a logical stance to take. But it makes no sense to be upset when other people use the term differently.
Did they vote out fascism or just successfully not vote in the explicitly far right? Though I mean hell, Germany’s AfD just had its best showing didn’t it?
The AfD did do really well last election, but it was also just classified as a right-wing extremist organization by Germany’s equivalent of the FBI. That means more monitoring and possibly reduction or removal of public funding. That should hopefully be an obstacle for them in the future.
It’s amazing how a German political party used their version of the secret police to attack their political opponents, and somehow, people think the AfD are the fascists. Just bizarre.
attack
What?
What would you call it when one organization tries to hurt another organization?
I’d call that a perhaps clueless but more likely malicious mischaracterization of the events.
They’re not exactly subtle about being Nazis. Weird that you jump to defend them unless you’re a Nazi yourself?
And looking at your profile, that’s one question answered.
Wasn’t that just made up? Like it wasn’t the AfD who made that, but some random guy on the Internet?
The poster seems to be real:
https://www.thetimes.com/world/europe/article/afd-accused-nazi-symbolism-election-germany-hm8dv7nql
Archive link: https://archive.is/dtG2v
Notice how he’s still defending the AfD after pretending that he was going to research it.
This is because he’s a fascist who only says what he needs to win an argument. Fascists are so entirely predictable.
He already said he doesn’t care.
Which really begs the question: why did he use that defense if it literally didn’t matter?
Because, like I told him, conservatives think things are true because they believe them. It’s why I asked if it would change his mind— I knew it wouldn’t, and I love it when they out themselves as the liars they are.
I appreciate the archive, it’s nice when people do that. Too often, “credible” news sites change articles without saying so.
That said, if true, the AfD is incredibly suspect here. I’d have to go looking to see if what they’re saying is true.
The poster is real. Please edit your initial comment to reflect that.
Would it change your mind? Because it seems like the Holocaust denialism and should have done that already, unless you’re just playing along like all right-wingers do.
The AfD’s chairman in Frankfurt, Wilko Möller, called the criticism “absurd” and said the poster was merely aimed at illustrating that the party cared for children. “What better way to show this than with a roof over the head, which the adults symbolically represent with their arms to protect the children,” he said.
Sounds like you’re looking for any excuses to give these guys a pass just because they share the same far-right political alignment as you.
Matthias Helferich was elected to the German parliament in 2021 but resigned his seat after prompting outrage by his declaration in a leaked internet chat that he was “the friendly face of the Nazis”.
Tbh, anything that’d actually get posted here wouldn’t change my mind, mainly because of a lack of trust. We’ve both seen articles that are blatant lies,
And wanting to deport assholes isn’t exactly far right, despite labels to the contrary.
Oh there’s a big surprise: a far-right wingnut will continue to lie for the Nazis despite the truth being very obvious.
How very postmodern of you. The truth is just what you believe, huh?
And might be dismantled as a neo-Nazi organization.
As with South Korea, you can see these mechanisms functioning, whether or not the end result… works.
reminder that the first antifascists who happened to vote were organized in paramilitaries so they could fight Nazis in the streets. unless libs start doing that, I don’t wanna hear about “le cordon sanitaire”.
judging by how modern libs are all rabid Zionists, maybe no paramilitaries for them though 🤧
Labor’s not pro-israel lol
They’re entirely neutral
tbf, neutrality in the face atrocity is complicity
Neutrality towards Israeli is about as oppositional as any entity can be. The extremes tend to fall between ‘support’ and ‘neutrality’ no matter how many children or civilians die.
Only if you’re consumed by propaganda.
What the fuck can australia legitimately do about the conflict? Nothing but strong words and not much else.
Well, they could stop sending weapons to israel, instead of just denying that they do.
https://acij.org.au/despite-government-claims-australia-still-exporting-lethal-arms-to-israel/
Likewise, the Australian government supplied fuel and bikes to Gaza; those very same bikes were used in the massacres that started the war. Are you going to hold the Australian government equally accountable for sending aid to Gaza, knowing that it will be Hamas who will use it?
Selling weapons to a military you are aware is in the long process of violently persecuting millions of people, in their country, with those weapons, is not the same as providing non-weapons to the persecuted, and having radicals fighting against the colonizing force appropriating them. This is a bad faith argument.
The weapons aren’t sold yet, they’re being trialled. Once the trial concludes its findings, then the purchase may go through.
They again, aren’t using the weapons in Gaza, because they’re being trialled. The Australian government also requested that the weapons are not to be used in Gaza.
Don’t dismiss Hamas as just radicals. They are the governing force of Gaza. Before the war, all international aid moved through Hamas before it could reach the Palestinians. That means that the bikes and fuel, both of which were used in the massacres that caused this current conflict, were directly sent to Hamas.
Stop lying.
I never said they didn’t take control, and they are radicals, I hear that descriptor attached to them all the time. Also, this specific unit was something I used to show that Australia has long term weapons sales desires with an apartheid state. When a government takes foreign aid, rather than distribute it, it is often said that they appropriated it, or stole it, or high-jacked it, whatever. Even beyond that, it wasn’t actual weapons, literally anything can be used as a weapon, so we either say literally everything going to a place is a weapons sales/trade/donation, or we reserve that name for things built specifically to be weapons.
Also, do not gloss over how colonized people often end up having to rely on radical elements of their population to fight against the colonizers. Do not gloss over the maneuvers bibi, and the israeli government, performed to make sure hamas stays in power, because they use them as a PR shield, like their soldiers record themselves using palestinians as bullet shields. Israel is the colonizing force here, the terrorist guerrilla government of hamas is a result of reaction to this colonization.
Sure, but is Trump and his cronies in jail?
Hexies are pointing out that the fash despost is death camping political opponents away, and 🇺🇲liberals are fine with that if it means slave labour in 🇺🇲 prisons.
Fascists are winning in the 🇺🇲 by being violent traffickers. Voting doesn’t suddenly coalesce opposition.
