Can you tell us how the Dems are going to reform the voting system so that people’s choices are fairly represented? No? They have no plans for that because they perceive themselves as beneficiaries of a broken electoral system? Wow it’s almost as if they’re self interested crooks themselves
You spent the whole elections saying that leftists were an irrelevant Demographic who could be safely ignored. And you’ll be saying it again come the next election. It’s only when you need someone to blame a loss on that they matter.
You just have a stupid voting system
Good. Since we’re the deciding factor, we have increased influence and more negotiating power going forward. Now the democrats (whose slogan is also “No rights!”) might actually listen to our demands next time if they don’t want to eat shit again.
And if they still won’t, then it’s obviously necessary to replace them and that has to start somewhere.
hehe, I agree with you. If we don’t get what we want we root for the worst possible outcome, and just hope that we are important then!
I dont get it.
OPs cartoon makes it clear that the dems are oposed to left-wing policies, so commie guy refused to vote against his interests.
The problem isnt commie guy, it’s all the other brainless sheep who keep voting for the same two parties who don’t represent them.
Consider this: if all the people forced to vote opted to vote someone else, then the Dems would really understand why they’re failing, and more, you’d have the basis for an actual third party to from.
But instead you and other dimwits keep preaching the same old 2 party rethoric who has been fucking you over for decades.
The problem
isnt commie guy, it’s all the other brainless sheep who keep voting for the same two parties who don’t represent themis definitely commie guy for not understanding that a boring and flawed neoliberal Democrat is preferable to a fascist dictatorship.Fixed that for you.
Consider this: if all the people forced to vote opted to vote someone else, then the Dems would really understand why they’re failing, and more, you’d have the basis for an actual third party to from.
Wrong answer. That made sense under Clinton vs Bush or Obama vs Romney, not nowadays. We can “consider” your proposal when there’s not a damn fascist dictator threatening to send US citizens to an El Salvadorian gulag for disagreeing with the President.
Then again, commies tend to love gulag’ing people who disagree with them, just ask Stalin… So maybe commie guy sees the gulags as a good thing?
a boring and flawed neoliberal Democrat is preferable to a fascist dictatorship.
Another reminder that blueMAGA don’t see Palestinians as human.
threatening to send US citizens to an El Salvadorian gulag for disagreeing with the President.
Yeah, just non-citizens, as is right and proper.
Every single one of those elections, the Dems chanting “us or fascism!!”
It’s kinda like the gun safety debate: we can not discuss it within 72 hrs of a mass shooting.
After 72 hrs, nobody wants to talk about it, or we have another one.
When will the Dems actually oppose fascism, instead of saying they want to?
Additionally, who is that “boring liberal republic” better for? Certainly not Palestinians. Certainly not for union workers on our rail lines. Not for people becoming houseless. Not for queer people. Not for indigenous peeps, either…
So, just for white, straight people, so we need to keep supporting it?
As a colorblind person, this seems perfectly reasonable.
You had a choice OP
- Vote to maintain a bad status quo
- Vote to make things a billion times worse via fascism
- Start a revolution
Instead you chose secret option d. Make ‘both sides equally bad’ memes to justify the acceptance of fascism.
Always vote against the fascist. Or revolt.
All 3 points are wrong. 1 There is no status quo, they have demonstrably both gone further right. Which brings me to 2 2 There is only fascism and fascism-light. Genocide Joe also built the wall, deported massively more people:
Bombed civilians in Yemen and displaced half a million people there for his genocidal proxy.
And many mor scummy thing.
3 They will never have a revolution, only placate Trump and move even further to the right to win back some votes.
And people will take it, americans are pacified and harmless, some lame protests are not ‘revolution’.
Gullible AF as shown by the massive upvotes you get from the many libs here.
They will all be hearded back into the status quo sytem by Bernie or AOC the new sheepdog puppy in training to prevent revolution or a valid 3rd party.Sad that even a non-american as yourself, not confined to thinking inside the box can be this wrong.
The other side of the uniparty thinks like you and is refusing to admit their wrongs, how bad do you have to be to not be an alternative to fascists? All of them get what they deserve.Mate, assuming youre an American, whatever you need to feel better about your inaction is up to you
Bottom line: once an Americans ability to vote is gone all your catchphrases mean nothing. The fascist is the one who will take that action.
American involvement in the middle east has worsened the situation for Palestinians since Trump was elected. That doesn’t mean Biden was anything but an awful leader but Trump is worse. Way way worse. Everything he does both foreign and domestic was enabled by those who both voted for him and those who refused to vote against him.
American involvement in the middle east has worsened the situation for Palestinians since Trump was elected.
No it hasn’t, you were just a genocide denier when it was your team doing it. In that sense, the situation is better under Trump because at least BlueMaga shitlibs like you are not denying their genocide anymore.
I’m not american, and I don’t ‘need to feel better’, I’m glad that country is destroying itself since they are all horrible, as I explained.
American involvement in the middle east has worsened the situation for Palestinians since Trump was elected.
You must be joking, there was nothing left for him to bomb in Palestine and he ruthlessly bombed Yemen, more than Trump did.
I give facts, they are not catchphrases as you demeaningly call it.
All you got is “Trump is worse”.
You should move there, you fit right in with the smug and sanctimonius libs shifting blame and vile insults at leftists for what they themselves caused.If you genuinely think things aren’t worse under Trump whilst simultaneously claiming you speak facts then I don’t know that you are capable of reason. Couple that with your apologia for excusing voting against fascism and its very obvious you’re about as left wing as Thatcher wasn’t.
Worse for whom?
Things haven’t changed a bit for my indigenous neighbors. They are being fucked over just as hard now, as before…
My black neighbors have noticed just as much now as before, cops still abusing their community and their still being ignored economically.
So, worse for white people? Sure.
And there it is, “if you dare question my genocide denial, you aren’t capable of reason!”
They are worse for themselves, that’s all, and all they care about.
The entirety of the Dems program was “let us continue to be shitty and also ignore that little genocide… or you get Trump and expensive eggs!”
And again you are incapable of understanding voting for them is not “voting against fascism”, since they both are and continuing the status quo BS it what got them in this position in the first place. I have zero sympathy for them.
And you certainly should not have an opinion on me being left.
What are you, some English guy voting for Kid Starver and larping as a leftist?
Really, don’t bother replying, no use in talking to obstinate people.Try and parse a bit of reality. By enabling fascism by voting for it or refusing to vote against it you make the situation worse for both those in Palestine and also remove your ability to vote out the person doing this.
And here’s you going on about eggs.
you make the situation worse for both those in Palestine
No, you were just a genocide denier when it was your team doing it.
also remove your ability to vote out the person doing this.
Your whole complaint is that people didn’t vote for the people doing this.
Dude, I’m doubting you are capable of reason. Compare what you wrote:-
If you genuinely think things aren’t worse under Trump
What you are responding to.
American involvement in the middle east has worsened the situation for Palestinians since Trump was elected. That doesn’t mean Biden was anything but an awful leader but Trump is worse. Way way worse.
Those were both me. What’s your point?
Copied the wrong reply. Anyway.
Neither of you is saying Trump is better.
Vote to make things a billion times worse
Your daily reminder that blueMAGA liberals don’t consider Palestinians human
(I’m also curious how they determined op is an American eligible voter in a swing state)
I guess the same way you assumed I am?
I didn’t, but I realise “no, U!” Is all you have, so you’re going to cram it in regardless.
So when you referred to my comment as 'blueMAGA liberals ’ you weren’t referring to what I said?
I was.
So you called me a bluemaga liberal but simultaneously you didn’t assume I was am American voter? Lol, whatever.
There’s no requirement to be an American voter to be blueMAGA. A fact that it is so obvious that I can only conclude you’re playing dumb on purpose.
Your daily reminder that tankies don’t consider Ukrainians human.
We want to stop the war and protect them from the yank army kidnappers.
You want them all to die for your evil cause. It is you who doesn’t consider them human.
Well that’s a completely incoherent non-sequitor, but that’s also all BlueMAGA has left.
You supported a genocide.
Really? You’re assuming of course that I’m am American citizen, which I’m not, or didn’t attend numerous protests to support Palestinians in the country I do live in, which I did.
The whole world is not the USA.
So did you.
Lol. The absolute state of BlueMAGA; reduced to “no, u!”
I mean, you randomly stated they supported a genocide. But yall are cool with letting the repubs win and getting one at home.
Oh, right, we wont have one at home. This time its being outsourced.
???
I assume you responded to the wrong post.
When there’s no wiggle room to try to absolve themselves of allowing and abetting the circus horror show they worship to continue working as intended (because they need it to live comfortably knowing full well that others thousands of KMs away can’t), all that’s left is a simple “no u”.
Westoid chauvinists/jingoists, especially libs who are arguably the most depraved of them all, are fucking annoying to engage with knowing this fact.
Seriously, nobody twists themselves into just incoherent and nonsense rhetorical knots as much as BlueMAGA libs. even the red variety are more coherent.
red variety: “yes actually we are racist and actually hate your guts”
blue: “yes but no but actually but maybe, perhaps, mayhaps, blue eyes, whataboutism, consider the alternative, juxtapose this to that, for instance, in short, in closing, blonde hair matters”
Basically, but with a lot self-righteousness and left-punching.
I wanted to not be genocided
So do we, but apparently the USA has made genocide a bipartisan consensus.
You can always count on @hamid@vegantheoryclub.org to get most rabbid libs stirred up and face their own contradictions (without taking away any insights from the posts themselves anyway lol)…
Literally every post that just puts the quiet part loud upsets them, lol. Please keep it up, love to see it.
it’s always funny to see the redditor libs be like “this instance is so Reddit!” with zero self awareness. Why did they even leave Reddit lmao
It takes less time for cats to realize who the other cat is in the mirror, than it takes for your average shitlib to reckon with their own projections. Feels absolutely wrong to put cats and libs in the same sentence, but I swear I can’t think of any other analogy.
Oh look, yet another post where traitors and cowards try to convince people not to vote
Imagine saying “traitor” to the USA like it’s a bad thing.
Traitors to whom? The genocidal yanknazi empire?
Demand politicians worth your vote
Glad I’m expendable in the meantime
Yeah, only foreigners are supposed to be expendable!
This has to be the most brain dead community on Lemmy, still pulling this “Both sides” bullshit
Welcome to .ml, you’ll get the jokes now.
You might not have noticed but 90% of these posts come from the same user
Look at this guy, believing there’s actually 2 sides
I don’t know on which community we currently are, but this is the most accurate depiction of what’s actually going on. Democrats serve the corporate elite and don’t really bother turning it left.
You aren’t wrong in that the democrats prefer the status quo but it’s far from both sides being the same. If we have to pick a side, and if we are still pro democracy, we do, there is only one correct choice.
Now if we can convince that side to then use the victory to change the rules, then so be it. For example, Ranked choice voting would be great, but let’s get more states to use it before expecting the highest office in the land to adopt it.
we are still pro democracy, we do, there is only one correct choice.
Western “democracy” in a nutshell. Catch-22 could only dream of such absurdity.
Stop with this braindead serve the elites meme. Dems last admin passed tons of left wing legislation that benefited everyone.
Genocide apologist
Nope
The most braindead instance is still .world. It’s basically reddit in a nutshell
The two party system is bullshit, and the solution is electoral reform like ranked choice voting.
One party, the Democratic party, usually (but not always) approves of such reform efforts.
The other party, the Republican party, universally opposes such efforts with extreme fervor.So it makes sense to hate the two party system, but that system is one party’s fault in particular.
This is just blind unconditional loyalty to the Democrats with extra steps.
If your plan is really to get voting reform done, then obviously the best strategy is to make support for a candidate conditional on them supporting it - because democrats do not always or even “usually” support it. Otherwise, there is zero incentive to implement it and a strong disincentive to do so - you won the election using the old rules, but if you change the rules, who knows?
You types are so silly about this issue. The very reason that we need RCV is the same reason we won’t get it. In the same way that FPTP blocks popular support for other progressive causes like “Don’t do genocide,” it also blocks causes like, “Implement RCV.” It’s like if my car won’t start and you tell me to just drive it to a mechanic. If we have some mechanism for implementing RCV, we should also just use that mechanism to get the other policies we want.
Your position would be more sensible and coherent if you were looking to achieve it through a mechanism outside of voting, but to insist on trying to use the tool you recognize as broken to repair itself is an absurdity, it’s completely irrational.
The only question worth discussing regarding voting is whether or not any conditions should be imposed on the democrats at all. If you say yes, then we can have a conversation of what those conditions should be, obviously, “supporting genocide” is unacceptable, but whether RCV should be a red line is another conversation. But if you say no, then your position on RCV is completely irrelevant, you’ll get it if the democrats say you do and won’t if they say you don’t and nothing about your behavior will change either way. It’s pure fantasy at that point, your support for RCV exists purely within your own mind and has no influence or effect on anything that happens in the world, you might as well be trying to wish a pony into being.
Politicians will never save us. The democrats won’t; the republicans won’t. Anywhere. Ever. Period.
Democrats commit genocide and pretend to be sad about it. Republicans commit genocide and post the 🤣 emoji
Democrats commit genocide and post the🙏 emoji
Republicans commit genocide and post the 🤣 emoji
This is why revolution and working class organization is necessary.
Also funny when people complain about Leftists critiquing the Dems. Pre-election you said to wait, now it’s post election and the same complaints arise.
I would still take blocking progress to the left over concentration camps every time
So yeah, if you think bith sides are the same, then I guess it doesnt matter who won. We probably would be here with tarrifs and camps and a dictatorship, but just with Harris.
I would still take blocking progress to the left over concentration camps every time
You had concentration camps under Biden.
I would still take blocking progress to the left over concentration camps every time
Um, blocking progress to the left was a major step in creating the concentration camps. That’s how it works, my friend. We’ve been saying this for several decades. Maybe one of these days the message will get through… Not today, though.
It will probably get through as me and my friends are in camps thinking that at least this would have happened with Harris anyways. Im sure she was all about getting rid of due process and shipping citizens to El Salvador.
But its cool. You guys are gonna have that revolution any day now. I hear theres all sorts of plans already.
Edit: In fact, lets just go back to the image
Dems block going left
Repubs ratchet to the right
So when the republicans dont have power, do the dems do it for them? I mean I know they dont do enough to stop them. No disagreements. But if we never elected a republican in office again, and they never had either of the 3 branches, and they didnt control any state, we would still be going right.
Im not asking would they still block us going left
But do you think we would stop progressing as a country?
Cause going through hundreds of years, theres actual quite a few things we actually have progressed with. Like look at us in the queer community. When I was graduating high school in 08, I thought we were still so much further out from same sex marriage. And then once people focused on trans people, I thought we were still even further out from the dems helping them.
But yet over time they did move forward. Dont Ask Dont Tell was still dog shit. But it was something. Then it became queer people were allowed in. Period.
So even just in my life and my community I have seen progress. Its slow. It is. Its painfully slow. But its progress
So if we never had republicans in power we would suddenly stop that? Am I wrong about my community slowly becoming more and more accepted over the decades?
Or does me just knowing my communities history and celebrating where we have gotten make me a liberal?
Literally admitting to wanting to keep or create concentration camps (as long as it doesn’t affect you or your friends)… you and the other Team Blue libs are fucking neo-nazi psychos…
Or
Here me out
Its more like a trolly problem
But the difference is the one is going to die
You didnt stop it by not voting
We arent going to stop Israel either way
But
On one side you have more death.
“You only care about your community.”
Im not Hispanic. I voted to try to keep this from happening to them.
Im not black. Theyre gonna ramp up slavery. I voted to at least help stop the Republicans from doing that
Women are going to due even more fron lack of Healthcare. Its not going to be states anymore. Its going to be federal.
Im not on Medicare or medicade. If those go, thats millions more…
Food stamps. People are gonna starve
Social Security. When people are too old to work but can’t afford rent, even more deaths
Farmers. Did you know that the last time Trump was president and they had to bail out farmers with our tax dollars, that money mostly went to corporate farms who then used that money to buy the land from farmers who were losing their farms and that this leads to hundreds if not thousands of farmers commiting suicide?
Do I love the democrats? No. Despite the no true Scotsman arguments, I dont like capitalism. Im pretty fucking against it.
But its amazing how many people are telling me Im only for my group. All of these groups are even more fucked than before.
Harm. Reduction.
I dont like meth or heroine. Ive seen the damage it does to people. Ive lost friends to it. But I also realize that just making it illegal has done nothing. Instead we need to take steps to help whole get off it. We need to do things like legalize it.
“So you love it!”
No. You legalize it, but then you also get places for people to get help. You dont just lock them up in prison and then set them free years later.
Voting isnt the only step. Its one step. Its harm reduction. It took me 1 out of 1,461 days to vote. That still leaves 1,460 days to do anything and everything else.
If dems stop progress but they arent the ones ratcheting, then a good step is to get rid of the ones ratcheting.
Its not the final step. Its a step.
You reduce the harm being done as you work for the final goal
But sure. Lets say I only care about my community and I votes to help only save us
That means you dont.
You dont care about any of these groups.
Wait, let me guess: youre gonna help save them in the revolution
After millions are dead
Are you getting prepared? Have you been practicing at the range? Are you in a militia? Are you ready to kill? Cause the 4th reich is here. Theres not really many other options. Especially if they make protesting illegal like the Republicans said. Trump said hes going after home grown next. You go to a protest in another year and you will likely be in the camps.
Or is the revolution like the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ where we just hear about it? Cause if you wont even try to just slow it down with 1 day, then how can I trust you with the rest?
When you see us begging people to vote to help save all of us and you talk shit, how am I supposed to beleive you wont talk shit as we get rounded up?
Its hard to fight for Palestine when I have to worry about the fact that my trans brothers and sisters are losing their passports, meaning they wont even be able to leave the country.
We arent going to stop Israel either way
I’m going to have to stop reading from here, I skimmed through 5 times anyways and couldn’t get any semblance of a coherent point. Clearly you don’t actually care about the marginalized groups you speak of, otherwise you would’ve understood why nobody takes your Western “democracy” seriously, you just continue to come off as the “I can’t be a genocide-loving Islamophobe, I have an Arab friend” type (or similar).
No amount of pearl clutching will wash away your depravity.
Im not Hispanic. Im not black.
That’s interesting, given that you were declaring yourself the universal spokesman of marginalized groups elsewhere.
The person your replying to didn’t say anything like that. Your just ranting for no fucking reason.
Was the first sentence of the person I’m replying to not enlightening enough, or does someone have to hand you the explanation on a silver platter?
We get it. Everyone you don’t like is a nazi.
If it quacks like a duck, and mass murders like one…
It will probably get through as me and my friends are in camps thinking that at least this would have happened with Harris anyways.
It would have, just not to you and your friends, which is all you care about.
Actually my community, the black community, Jewish people, Native Americans. All of us turned out for Harris. We also voted to try and stop the republicans from rounding Hispanic people as well.
Its amazing how Im hearing that I only care about my community when its yall telling the marginalized communities we are wrong. That we are all the liberals who are to blame for all of this.
All of you? I didn’t realise that minority groups were one undifferentiated mass and not individuals. I’m glad that you, the spokesperson for blacks, Jews, and native Americans, has set me straight.
Its amazing how Im hearing that I only care about my community when its yall telling the marginalized communities we are wrong.
Your daily reminder that blueMAGA liberals don’t consider Palestinians human.
If you look at marginalized communities and ignore us because “Well not all agree”, when shit like 82% do, then just say you dont want to listen to us. And you try to call me out for speaking for those other communities while also saying theyre shit libs and dont listen to them either.
Once again proving my point.
And this is why communities are about to become more insular. Cause if yall hate us, then fuck it. Do it. Im just glad that this last year has finally shown that all this talk about supporting minorities hasn’t meant shit. And I can guarantee you I have heard more than enough people saying that same things.
So were you summoned in a ritual of some kind, Mr avatar, or do you form out of the aether? I’m curious how the entire collective will of all members of marginalized groups became merged in one obnoxious .world poster.
You still haven’t revealed if Palestinians are part of your collective hive Mind, but I’m getting the feeling they aren’t
Nobody’s debating this. What are you going on about.
Which part?
The part about both sides? Well if both sides arent the same then maybe we should do harm reduction, which is a term I tend to hear more so in leftist spaces, and go with the dems.
Decades of mindless “harm reduction” got you where you are.
Well if marginalized communities are the cause of our own downfall then I guess you can sleep soundly knowing you did what you could to save us.
I didn’t realise I was talking to the incarnate avatar of “marginalised community”. Are Palestinians included in your metaphysical essence?
Are the Ukrainians included in yours?
Least incoherent shitlib
So you only care about them. Got it.
Funny how yall claim to be against the genocide but youre very vocal about not caring about us as we keep saying the shit we go through is happening. But its cool, because you only heard jt from me and never listen to the communities as a whole, so you can ignore the rest.
I just think its swell that leftist is now cisgender heternormative and white.
I just think its swell that leftist is now cisgender heternormative and white.
So were you summoned in a ritual of some kind, Mr avatar, or do you form out of the aether? I’m curious how the entire collective will of all members of marginalised groups became merged in one obnoxious .world poster.
You still haven’t revealed if Palestinians are part of your collective hive Mind, but I’m getting the feeling they aren’t
I empathize a bit, but it’s not like democrats haven’t been getting more leftward either.
The truth is though that ultimately, politicians are gonna be malleable to those who are going to vote, both because of the very simple “if I focus here, I will be more likely to get the most votes while providing due change”, but also because the idea of democracy is based in the trust that publics will emerge to voice their concerns to the politicians.
Most politicians are just not online enough to gather the discourse that we would be experiencing, and also there’s the whole issue of not knowing how much of it is foreign interference in a trench-suit pretending to be the voices of the locals. That’s why direct calls to voicing these concerns to local politicians, and being willing to hear them out as much as they hear you out matters a lot. Some do forget over the years, but a lot join politics because they genuinely want to make life better.
The truth is though that ultimately, politicians are gonna be malleable to those who are going to vote
Literally not the truth; polls showed several times more voters wanted a ceasefire than who didn’t and Kamala still decided to go with wholeheartedly supporting the genocide.
I empathize a bit, but it’s not like democrats haven’t been getting more leftward either.
The furthest left democrat with any sway is Bernie “Israel has a right to defend itself” Sanders.
Most politicians are just not online enough to gather the discourse that we would be experiencing,
I think you don’t have to be online to understand several incredibly acute contradictions that are mounting at the moment, between the horrible brutality of genocide in Gaza, concentration camps at the border that have been active since the Obama years in addition to CECOT and Guantanamo, the coming climate collapse, erosion of queer rights, and all manner of civil rights. These phenomena signify a movement of the entire capitalist ruling class, who wield empire in their hands, to the most extreme forms of violence. It’s a bipartisan affair. They aren’t carefully measuring public opinion, Joe Biden deliberately went out and confidently lied about Palestinians beheading Israeli babies while the IDF massacred the children of Gaza. There is no calculation of how to balance public concerns in that action, they only want to control you and brutalize the weakest among the oppressed people of the world, to consolidate power in uncertain times and weather the storm. If the public rejects the carrot, we get the stick and that’s Trump. They want you to be a good little peasant and go back to the carrot while they slaughter the people of the oppressed nations and the most marginalized minorities.
Some do forget over the years, but a lot join politics because they genuinely want to make life better
She’s only one woman, but she’s probably the most visible example of this myth. AOC is not a “bartender and community organizer turned political leader” she’s a Democratic Party plant who operated an LLC that received mysterious funding and became a prominent political figure out of nowhere. Obama has a similar legendary backstory as a “community organizer” but his family on his dad’s side has intelligence ties. I don’t think every single local politician is part of some crazy conspiracy, though, but you’re engaging in some level of magical thinking if you think the Democratic Party can somehow be run by well-meaning local leaders, in a world where the establishment can create an AOC to capture and redirect public sentiment very easily.
Oh no, I entirely disagree. The majority of Washington Democrats are right in the corporate center. They aren’t working to make life better for the average person. If they were, why didn’t they seriously push for universal healthcare, raising the minimum wage, or regulating big banks and other monopolies?
(I know, you’re going to say the Republicans stopped them, but everyone who actually remembers when the Democrats had the majority knows better than that. But even if we’re mistaken, like our memories are entirely false, that would only show that the Democrats have the power to stop Trump right now, which they’re failing to do… Either excuse only goes to prove the aforementioned claim.)
Soooo Dems won’t make it better but least won’t make it worse. If 2 party then easy choice.
Shame people didnt do this 20 years ago and voted gop out of existence.
twenty years ago people gave the Dems a super-majority; they used it to lock in the fascist policies of the Bush admin and give a massive hand out the wealthy.
911 kind of destroy any semblance of reason in the country. Everyone was angry. Tried to talk reason? Just look at Dixie chicks and boondocks version of MLK.
That’s your excuse? Seriously?
“Shame people didn’t vote Dem 20 years ago, the gop wouldn’t be around!”
“They did”
“Yeah, but 9/11 had happened only a decade earlier”
excuse? Hope maybe but now I doubt it with young boys being Tate trolls.
Naa country hadn’t healed yet for 10 years after. Now? I dont think 911 is a factor but nation has other issues made apparent by Trump.
So why did you say "Soooo Dems won’t make it better but least won’t make it worse. If 2 party then easy choice.
Shame people didnt do this 20 years ago and voted gop out of existence."?
Soooo Dems won’t make it better but least won’t make it worse.
Obama oversaw the largest decrease in black household wealth in american history
Not because of housing crisis? I seriously don’t know what specifically he did.
No, my friend, you’re wrong. The Washington Democrats do make it worse. They (most of them) are willing participants in making life worse for the average American, and they know it, and they don’t care.
Well we know it. A few dinos are collaborating for power trips. I recall a few ruining quite a few plans.
but at least won’t make it worse.
Any arguments for harm reduction were gunned down in the streets of Gaza.
"Gaza? never heard of it.
Lalalalalalalallaal cant hear you. Head in sand.
Genocide? Innocent lives?
No no no insurgents even that baby and those reporting and uh its in the Torah…"
I could do narcissist prayer but It disgusts me to go any further.
The function of a ratchet is to make an object go in one direction more easily. Democrats fulfill a function in propeling the country rightward. This was arguably not true 80 years ago but post-Reagan they are part of a process of rightward movement. Voting for and legitimizing them is moving the country right and making things worse.
I get not voting dem so please vote for a third party. And do not sleep on it.
Just never vote gop.
Im not hoping for dems to change im hoping they stay status quo long enough for gop to die.
???
25 years ago the Democrats won the election against Bush and then Gore gave up. They personally handed the presidency over to the republicans. Democrats like to lose even when they win. Then 21 years ago the Dems ran on a platform of “we’ll kill Muslims more efficiently than the Republicans.”
Democrats don’t want to win. Their primary purpose is to prevent a left from existing.
Also don’t forget Nancy Pelosi’s statement about the country needing a “strong republican party” last year. These people are ghouls and aren’t to be trusted.
Oh bet they need a strong gop. Of course they do they need thier boogie man. Without the gop guess who’s the most right wing popular party now? Can’t rack in that donation money without them.
Don’t make me tap the sign again
You need to zoom out. Imagine you’re looking back at this moment from 100 years in the future. If people said “the Dems won’t make it better but at least they won’t make it worse” and just kept the system going, do you think it will ever lead to progress? Will the whole system ever improve?
You need to look for a solution outside of that system. Stop looking for lesser evils in the ballot box. First, look to the people immediately around you and try to join local organizations that might be directly working to improve their conditions (soup kitchens, women’s shelters, etc). Then, organize labor: figure out how to join a union, if there isn’t one read the IWW (or any other big union near you) manual on organizing your workplace and find support to start organizing your workplace. Then from there, your objective should be to take the workers’ struggle to the national and international stage. Change doesn’t come from the ballot box, it comes from building alternative power structures ourselves.
I agree with all you said. No it won’t improve just give time for gop to age out. Since they are actively making things worse. Least dems aren’t trying that hard to deport people or remove renewables.
Though I think change could have happened if 20 mil people voted third party or for Harris instead of sleeping in. Seeing Trump lose twice would have been a great catalyst for changing gop.
The problem with having 365 million people or so in a sick society that encouraged and rewards destroying each other is that things get worse automatically.
Dems doing nothing makes things worse. Reps doing nothing makes things worse. Its a prisoners dilemma where the only winning move is to kill the cops and hope for the best.
If al gore won we’d have still invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, it would just be in bush jrs first term in 2004 that we invade Iraq.
You are Probably right though im sure gore would have pushed for renewables. Thats like his whole thing.
Dear Liberals,
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I am so glad I can’t see the bullshit from lemmy.world on my server
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Your economic system guarantees fascism. You can’t vote your way out of it. Capitalist modes of production inevitably concentrate power and lead to fascism. It is unavoidable.
actually this time it’ll be different, we just won’t have another crisis of capitalism that requires the stamping out of revolutionaries
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“Both sides bad” is why we have Trump.
Democrats took America from gays are illegal, to full gay rights with marriage. Environmental laws have been all Democrats. If Democrats did nothing, Trump wouldn’t have signed 76 executive orders reversing Biden orders on his very first day.
Of course there was some good legislation along the way. Nobody is denying that. But the crisis we face now is there because the Democrats decided to ignore the danger. It really is that simple…
You can start with Citizens United. You can talk about the Dems after 9/11, the illegal drone strikes, Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, how the Dems celebrated the human rights violations then, which leads us to El Salvador today. You can talk about stacking the courts, which was a plan publicly announced in the 90s, that the Dems never seriously tried to stop, leading to the current Supreme Court…
If you want to say, “Well, the Dems are less evil,” then great, many people partly agree. But that’s not good enough. They fucked us all over by not stopping the Republicans from doing really horrible shit, even though we all knew what was coming. Maybe in a few years we can write on Biden’s tombstone “Not quite as evil as Trump.” Would that make anyone happy? Is that something to be proud of?
Democrats took America from gays are illegal, to full gay rights with marriage.
Gay marriage was legalized at the federal level by a conservative-leaning Supreme Court. The only time a Democrat acted on same-sex marriage nationally was when Bill Clinton banned it by signing DOMA in 1996.
Environmental laws have been all Democrats.
Nixon created the EPA.
If Democrats did nothing, Trump wouldn’t have signed 76 executive orders reversing Biden orders on his very first day.
If Democrats passed legislation, Biden’s achievements couldn’t be undone through executive order.
The parties are not the same, especially now that one of them is openly fascist, but you’re giving Democrats credit for things they did not do. Also, the meme doesn’t say they’re the same, it describes the rachet effect, which is an accurate representation of how Democrats behaved on multiple issues. Look at how their economic policies have changed over the last 30 years, or how their views on immigration policies have changed since Trump was elected.
Is there a political community you found on lemmy that understands how this works, like you do. I see way too many Democrat apologists on these popular communities.
Well, .world has a lot of users who understand this, but the loudest voices (who are often times moderators) are definitely Democrat apologists. Then again, some of the other instances, like .ml, have the opposite problem, and are full-blown tankie/authoritarian apologists, so it’s kind of a, “pick your poison, damned if you do, damned if you don’t,” situation.
That is absolutely not what I’m saying. I’m correcting objectively false statements you’re making; environmental laws were not all Democrats, the Democrats did not do anything at the federal level to pass, “full gay rights with marriage,” and the meme and OP did not say, “both sides bad.” Those points are a statement of fact, not an argument.
I miss Reddit. R. I. P.
Eh, I saw a lot of the same shit on Reddit. I think you’d have to go back at least 7 or 8 years to find a version of Reddit that wasn’t trash.
Nah. I had my feed highly curated to active and sane subs within my interests. It was too good to be true.
Your list supporting Republicans means you must support Trump. right?
I mean you can’t have it both ways. Nixon created the EPA, Nixon was Republican, therefore Republican policy is to put the environment first. That’s what you are arguing.
What a stupid comment
That is absolutely not what I’m saying. I’m correcting objectively false claims you’re making; environmental laws were not all Democrats, the Democrats did not do anything at the federal level to pass, “full gay rights with marriage,” and the meme and OP did not say, “both sides bad.” Those points are a statement of fact, not an argument.
If you have to go back 50 years to find an example of when Republicans were good for the environment, you proved my point.
It’s no different than, “Republicans are the party of Lincoln!”
First reply: “Giving Nixon credit for the EPA means you support Republicans and therefore Trump.”
Second reply: “NIxon was so long ago he doesn’t count.”
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim pointing out a good thing Nixon did means I support modern Republicans while also claiming Nixon happened so long ago that he’s not connected to modern Republicans.
It’s also just factually wrong to say, “it was so long ago, its like saying they’re the anti-slavery party.” Nixon represents the turning point for the Republican party, where they abandoned their support for Civil Rights and embraced the Southern Strategy. He’s basically the turning point for where the Republicans became the party we know today. He’s the reason it’s bullshit to point out Republicans are the party of Lincoln.
deleted by creator
If you’re talking about the Respect for Marriage Act, that was passed a decade after the Supreme Court established gay marriage as the law of the land. The overturning of Roe made Democrats decide that they should codify gay marriage, since they saw how badly failing to codify abortion rights turned out. It also reopens the door for Civil Unions and passed with large Republican support, so I wouldn’t exactly call it a huge win for Democrats.
As for the EPA, I’m not sure what you’re talking about, but you are absolutely incorrect. Nixon proposed the EPA and NOAA through executive order, and it was later ratified by Congress. It’s possible you’re referencing some sort of dispute Nixon had with Congress on how they intended to create the EPA, but he absolutely supported it; it was his idea.
No “vote blue no matter who” and not demanding actual representation is how we got Trump. People got duped by a con becuase they have never seen the real thing, so anything different can look appealing to the uncritical.
Never let perfect be the enemy of good or some shit.
Socially left on some issues and economically right on all issues isn’t left.
No, the DNC is why we have trump. It’s on them.
Obama wasn’t perfect at all, but his platform was at least change and progress. While he was originally against gay marriage he did listen to the public and change for re-election. If the DNC listened to the public instead of fighting against progress that would be great. But like… Biden was the throw away to conservatives for Obama’s VP to “balance out” Obama being progressive….And now he was their best idea on what to do for a better future? It’s pathetic, and demonstrates the above.
No one is trying to say Biden was worse than trump. They’re saying the DNC is what even allowed trump to exist, by being greedy fucks who care more about their handlers than the American people and running the worst candidates they can. “Nothing will fundamentally change” is the dumbest, most “fuck you don’t bother to vote for me” fucking campaign I’ve ever heard.
No one is trying to say Biden was worse than trump.
The meme isn’t that Biden was worse but that he did nothing. It’s proveably false. Trump himself proved it by criticizing Biden at inauguration and immediately undoing Biden’s orders.
If it was that easy to undo what biden did, then practically he did nothing.
Much of what Trump has “undone” wasn’t undone legally. Many of the things he did requires congress to rollback and other things are caught up in courts. But in the mean time they happened so it will be potentially unable to be put back even if it is ordered so.
So, again, practically meaningless distinction. Until democrats are willing to use the same tools they leave available to republicans, the democrats are ineffective.
Thing is, they don’t have the same opportunities. The one reason why trump has been able to push things through in this shitty manner, is because the Republicans have stacked the Supreme Court (because the holes from people dying got filled while Republicans were in power) and they have majority control of Congress.
Its fine let them keep losing. I honestly don’t care anymore. At some point progressives like Bernie, AOC, etc. will finally wake up & realize they don’t need Democrats to win. You want to see people passionate about voting again then it is time to leave the establishment behind. Anyone remember Bernie’s crowds in 2016? It was obvious he was may more popular than Clinton having to pay Beyonce & Jay Z for people to show up at her events.
They absolutely, 1000% need Democrats to win. Maybe not their respective districts, but if they want to get anything done on a national level, they need about half the country on their side, and that includes Democrats.
Now, they can certainly eat the party whole, the way the tea party and MAGA ate the GOP. That involves being more specific than “Democrats bad”. In fact, how did they do it? Did you ever see them telling people to abandon the Republican party?
I understand where you’re coming from, but Democrats need progressives to win. If they leave Democrats, it will be Democrats that will follow them, not the other way around. I don’t think trying to emulate MAGA is such a great idea. I know there are lessons that can be learned there, but I am still confident that a new party with popular progressives & populist policies would do more than trying to change a broken party from within.
Bernie and AOC are sheepdogs for the Dems. They are all-in on the party. When people become disillusioned with Dems, they pop in to spread false hope and convince people to come back and believe in the Dems.
It is true that the welfare state is popular and thar is basically what they are selling. The public wants healthcare, not the cruelty and expense of the capitalist extraction insurance industry. So Medicare for All sounds great in comparison. It’s very popular when actually explained to people.
But it will never become policy without turmoil. The health insurance industry is a huge leech excreting profits for the owner class. Dems want to dangle it in front of voters but will never suppory it when in power, they will enginerr a Lieberman or parliamentarian because the party is completely beholden to capital, including insurance capital.
I’m sure you agree with a lot of what I have said. I just want to emphasize that Bernie and AOC are not really outsiders, they are ineffectual refornists whose only current function - one that they embrace - is to keep people that hate the crimes of the Democratic Party, up to and including genocide, to keep voting for them.
Decades of lesser evil voting is why you have Trump
actually, your candidate running a dogshit campaign and telling everyone to the left of them to fuck off is why we have trump. we warned this would happen, too. anyone with a memory span longer than a pet goldfish remembers all of this.
“Both sides bad” is why we have Trump.
You have Trump because you have capitalism and the reactionary political class serves a purpose in it. Liberalism tells you to only think of politics in a vacuum: whatever the last election was and what the next election is. In this vacuum they limit the world of politics down to what the two capitalist parties promise for capital, which varies and triangulates over time. The GOP was originally a party of free states and slavery abolition and the Democrats slavers and Southern white racists. Look at how they shift over time, both parties existing now for over 120 years. If you only ever look at the previous and next 4 years of what the capitalist political duopoly gives you, you will never understand the currents or why your “good guys” are increasingly xenophobic and transphobic or how political choices are actually made, because it is not just every four years at a ballot box proxied through some weirdos in the electoral college.
Anyways, both sides are bad. Have you already forgotten Biden’s genocide in Gaza? Dems’ “tough on the border” pivot? Breaking the rail strike? Being competent stewards of imperialism? I think liberals like to forget Blue Crimes, they are basically told to do so by mass media and it doesn’t comport with parasocially liking the sunglasses ice cream guy if you acknowledge he’s a genocidal racist. It isn’t really your fault to be in that bubble, but it is on you if you don’t seriously listen to others taking the time to explain its problems.
Democrats took America from gays are illegal, to full gay rights with marriage.
Absolutely wrong. Gay rights were popularized by left struggle, not struggle from Dems. Dems were dragged there by younger people that were radicalized by the people actually fighting for gay rights. Pride was a riot. The liberal assent and cooption was lagging, not leading. And in the US, gay marriage at the federal level was created by fiat of unelected lords (the Supreme Court) and not Democratic policy, despite Dems having full control of Congress and the Presidency in the neighboring period. Finally, gay rights are not full. I don’t understand why you think they would be. Gay people still face all kinds of oppressions in the US and the law only rarely protects them.
Environmental laws have been all Democrats.
This is simply factually incorrect. Early “environmental” laws were largely implemented by Republicans, including Teddy Roosevelt, also a racist genocidal war criminal. This was in many ways responding to muckrakers and organized labor who saw the environment, living conditions, and working conditions as inextricable.
Nixon signed the EPA into existence.
If Democrats did nothing, Trump wouldn’t have signed 76 executive orders reversing Biden orders on his very first day.
Democrats don’t do nothing, they just avoid doing the vast majority of things good for humanity in general and even just the US citizen working class. Even when they promise to do so, they have an excuse and whipping boy ready to go. Oh, Ovama and the national platform said single-payer? Sorry there’s Lieberman and we can’t kill the filibuster and oh man no discipline at all. Cancel student debt? Oh sorry there’s a parliamentarian that we can just override and fire and okay we will issue a conspicuously legally weak executive order and then fold at the earliest opportunity.
But Democrats do implement policies, they just do so in the interest of capital. Their platform represents certain formations of capital, the GOP’s some others, and they share many donors. The different formations undo each others’ work when in power. Or at least they don’t flex their muscles until something is intolerable to them.
LOL no it isn’t, Trump or someone like him was an inevitability because US elections are fixed and the people who have actual power in your society, Corporate board members, want fascism.
Truth there. I’m from a dark blue area yet city government here couldn’t act any different than if I lived in a dark red state. In some ways I actually think they are worse. All they have to do is put D next to their name & the voters will support them regardless of their actions.
Case in point: the consequences of Dems co-opting the George Floyd protests was tp increase cops at the expense of public services ans to then spend even more on cops because Biden gave them federal funding. They did the “tough on crime” right wing thing and this was forced into the mainstream position.
Spoken like a Weimar
Accepting gays is definitely the same as funding sex change for prisoners and sending them to a female prison, which was one of the most successful ads in history.
Correct. Not to mention the midterm congressional elections that only see ~20% turnout, and even less in the congressional primaries. The overwhelming majority are retirees, who will almost always pick the most conservative option in their party. People love to complain about term limits and appeasement centrists, but they don’t show up when they actually have a say in who represents them.
Capitalists will never let you vote them out of power. The field in which politicians can operate electorally is already heavily restricted and biased by donors and a donor-focused campaign machine that is further entrenched by ever-changing thresholds for candidacy and redistricting. I encourage you to run as a principled person as a third party and see how it goes. I would encourage you to run as a Dem but the time when a politician learns they are also enemies is after they’ve already helped entrench the party. If you ran as a Dem with principles they would not help your campaign and might fight it. Once in office they’ll stymy most of what you attempt.
Voting for every general election is just picking which of two capitalist parties will dictate policy. And the “good guys” are actually detrimental enough that they make their potential voters apathetic or opposed to thrm, as they cannot resonate with their experiences or needs. You know what folks actually need? Rent cut by 90%. Real estate is a financial legalized crime to create “passive income” for the wealthy. That would be incredibly popular. It would also be impossible for a capitalist party in the US, it is their antithesis.
So the serious, adult question is to state what the existential problems are and then ask what solutions could be sufficient to solve them. And there is at least one thing we know well in US electoralism: just voting for Dems will never be close to enough, abd even believing it is particularly important will just keep you ans others from spending the time to work together and do enough.
gotta say, I’m extremely glad .world defederated from Hexbear. viewing this thread over here is night and day from looking at it on .ml and seeing The Smartest People in The Room say "ahh, so you just support trump then, got it
"I’ll never understand why those people quit reddit. What could their problem be with it?
LOL I’m thinking the same thing, I looked at it logged on out .ml and its chock full of fantasy thinking
if I can’t criticize Dems before the election (that just ends up supporting trump) and I can’t criticize Dems after the election (that just ends up supporting trump), when CAN I criticize them? it seems like they just don’t want me criticizing them at all!!
Remember when everyone was terrified of ron desantis because he was “as evil as trump but a lot smarter”?
It’s a great way to plan for when Trump dies and libs need to scold people all over again.
What I learned from the memes I posted is that liberals just want a single party state
But not in a way that they would weild power and do any good for anyone. They want the American project to go on unimpeded but also for everyone to shut up about it.
