Zelensky will finally have to negotiate and end the war (that is, if he wouldn’t get overthrown/killed before that), and millions of Ukrainians will finally get to live without fear of them/their husbands/fathers/etc. getting kidnapped on the streets and being sent to army to die or get permanently wounded.
Ukrainians in Crimea and other annexed territories [that are not close to the front lines] have more or less normal life now. They can continue living where they live, or they can at any moment return to Ukraine, nobody is holding them hostage, they are free!
On the other hand, Ukrainians who failed to escape Ukraine don’t really have a choice other live in fear that today might be the day they (or their family) get kidnapped and sent to the army, or try to escape and get caught by “heroes” of the border patrol who carefully watch that nobody escape the meat grinder (unless they give them a hefty bribe).
Have you read what I’ve written? Let me quote myself again:
Ukrainians who failed to escape Ukraine don’t really have a choice other live in fear that today might be the day they (or their family) get kidnapped and sent to the army, or try to escape and get caught by “heroes” of the border patrol who carefully watch that nobody escape the meat grinder (unless they give them a hefty bribe).
You’re absolutely right about Russia having problems you’ve described, I’ve never said Russia is a good place to live (except when comparing to current situation in Ukraine) but in Ukraine people are getting kidnapped and sent to die! Literally! How can you even compare those two things?
If you don’t like what happens in Russia - you can just leave. You are not a hostage! If you like Ukraine so much - go buy a ticket and join army as a volunteer.
If you don’t like what happens in Ukraine - you can’t do anything! You are not allowed to leave country, don’t even dream about going to Russia! You can’t even come close to a border! You are treated worse than a street dog! You can only try to hide from the government until it gets overthrown or until somehow the war ends.
I’ve been conscripted myself. I did my years in the army. They were not a kidnapping.
If you resist a conscription done by a democratic, legal government of the country you’re living in, you’re not kidnapped; you’re caught. Call a spade a spade.
Ok, so Zelensky has banned opposition parties, arrested political opponents. And furthermore he cancelled elections that were supposed to happen next month. Will you be condemning Ukrainian conscription then, since the government will neither be democratic or legally elected?
Pretty sure Russia “kidnaps” (conscripts) a hell of alot more than Ukraine does.
Russia also beating Ukrainians in the occupied territories, forcing them to become Russian citizens, and then either forcing them into fighting against their own country or ship them off to some labour camp never too be seen again.
Pretty sure Russia “kidnaps” (conscripts) a hell of alot more than Ukraine does.
Russia does have conscription which is totally immoral and wrong as well, but it does not kidnap people into army (or at least does not do that on a scale nearly close to Ukraine).
Ukraine literally does kidnapping (catching people on the streets, running after them and using force to put them into vans/etc. Some people manage to self-defend with pepper-sprays, or outrun them or sometimes got protected by a crowd of people, but those are the lucky ones).
Source: uadraftmuseum.ch, and if you search comments on this post you’ll see another guy posting a link to nytimes (a western media!) talking about the same, but it is paywalled and I cannot read it so I won’t repost it.
Russia also beating Ukrainians in the occupied territories
Yes. Note how I never said that Russia are the good guys. There are no good guys, everybody commits warcrimes (Including Ukraine, USA, and all the other countries that are currently considered good guys by the mainstream media). I am just saying that people in Russia (including Ukrainians on occupied territories) have unimaginably more freedom than people in Ukraine.
forcing them to become Russian citizens
I included a source for my claims, surely you have a source for your claims? There was another article here on lemmy about nuclear power plant where “everything is going terrible right now, because only the intelligent Ukrainians know how to operate it, and they are not allowed to work on it because they have refused to accept Russian citizenship”. So which one is it, are they forced to become Russian citizens or not?
either forcing them into fighting against their own country or ship them off to some labour camp never too be seen again.
Which is so much different from what Ukraine does, right? Or in case of Ukraine it’s all alright because the west supports it, but in case of Russia it’s barbaric?
Btw, any source on “ship them off to some labour camp never too be seen”?
Do you think they are “free” to leave Russia?
Literally, yes. Some of my family (but unfortunately not everyone, because lately escaping this west-supported mass-prison is almost impossible) managed to escape Ukraine by going to occupied territories, and from there to Russia itself, and then they just left Russia and went wherever they wanted. (Obviously nobody here would believe that I’m actually Ukrainian, because as we all know all Ukrainians are happy to die in the meat grinder while screaming “for the glory of Zelensky, my only master”, and those who want their family and friends to stay alive are Russian bots, so you can replace “my family” with “many Ukrainians” if that will make it easier for you to read).
Do you have any sources claiming otherwise?
But sometimes you gotta call a spade a spade. If you think Putin will finish after a victory in Ukraine you must never have opened a history book in your life.
So if you hate Putin so much - then why don’t you go and fight him yourself? Why do you want millions of Ukrainians to die instead of you, for your goals? How can you think you have a moral high ground supporting a genocide?
Zelensky will finally have to negotiate and end the war (that is, if he wouldn’t get overthrown/killed before that), and millions of Ukrainians will finally get to live without fear of them/their husbands/fathers/etc. getting kidnapped on the streets and being sent to army to die or get permanently wounded.
Russia has typically been great to non-ethnic Russians, right?
Ukrainians in Crimea and other annexed territories [that are not close to the front lines] have more or less normal life now. They can continue living where they live, or they can at any moment return to Ukraine, nobody is holding them hostage, they are free!
On the other hand, Ukrainians who failed to escape Ukraine don’t really have a choice other live in fear that today might be the day they (or their family) get kidnapped and sent to the army, or try to escape and get caught by “heroes” of the border patrol who carefully watch that nobody escape the meat grinder (unless they give them a hefty bribe).
“They are free!”
Provided you don’t criticise Russia’s actions, the regime, try to change anything or raise an issue about any oligarch stealing.
That’s not freedom.
Have you read what I’ve written? Let me quote myself again:
You’re absolutely right about Russia having problems you’ve described, I’ve never said Russia is a good place to live (except when comparing to current situation in Ukraine) but in Ukraine people are getting kidnapped and sent to die! Literally! How can you even compare those two things?
If you don’t like what happens in Russia - you can just leave. You are not a hostage! If you like Ukraine so much - go buy a ticket and join army as a volunteer.
If you don’t like what happens in Ukraine - you can’t do anything! You are not allowed to leave country, don’t even dream about going to Russia! You can’t even come close to a border! You are treated worse than a street dog! You can only try to hide from the government until it gets overthrown or until somehow the war ends.
If you’re conscripted you’re not kidnapped.
I’ve been conscripted myself. I did my years in the army. They were not a kidnapping.
If you resist a conscription done by a democratic, legal government of the country you’re living in, you’re not kidnapped; you’re caught. Call a spade a spade.
Ok, so Zelensky has banned opposition parties, arrested political opponents. And furthermore he cancelled elections that were supposed to happen next month. Will you be condemning Ukrainian conscription then, since the government will neither be democratic or legally elected?
You naming it conscription instead of kidnapping doesn’t mean it’s not kidnapping. Talk about calling spade a spade…
Pretty sure Russia “kidnaps” (conscripts) a hell of alot more than Ukraine does.
Russia also beating Ukrainians in the occupied territories, forcing them to become Russian citizens, and then either forcing them into fighting against their own country or ship them off to some labour camp never too be seen again.
Do you think they are “free” to leave Russia?
That’s a lot of assumptions to make an argument.
Russia does have conscription which is totally immoral and wrong as well, but it does not kidnap people into army (or at least does not do that on a scale nearly close to Ukraine).
Ukraine literally does kidnapping (catching people on the streets, running after them and using force to put them into vans/etc. Some people manage to self-defend with pepper-sprays, or outrun them or sometimes got protected by a crowd of people, but those are the lucky ones).
Source: uadraftmuseum.ch, and if you search comments on this post you’ll see another guy posting a link to nytimes (a western media!) talking about the same, but it is paywalled and I cannot read it so I won’t repost it.
Yes. Note how I never said that Russia are the good guys. There are no good guys, everybody commits warcrimes (Including Ukraine, USA, and all the other countries that are currently considered good guys by the mainstream media). I am just saying that people in Russia (including Ukrainians on occupied territories) have unimaginably more freedom than people in Ukraine.
I included a source for my claims, surely you have a source for your claims? There was another article here on lemmy about nuclear power plant where “everything is going terrible right now, because only the intelligent Ukrainians know how to operate it, and they are not allowed to work on it because they have refused to accept Russian citizenship”. So which one is it, are they forced to become Russian citizens or not?
Which is so much different from what Ukraine does, right? Or in case of Ukraine it’s all alright because the west supports it, but in case of Russia it’s barbaric?
Btw, any source on “ship them off to some labour camp never too be seen”?
Literally, yes. Some of my family (but unfortunately not everyone, because lately escaping this west-supported mass-prison is almost impossible) managed to escape Ukraine by going to occupied territories, and from there to Russia itself, and then they just left Russia and went wherever they wanted. (Obviously nobody here would believe that I’m actually Ukrainian, because as we all know all Ukrainians are happy to die in the meat grinder while screaming “for the glory of Zelensky, my only master”, and those who want their family and friends to stay alive are Russian bots, so you can replace “my family” with “many Ukrainians” if that will make it easier for you to read).
Do you have any sources claiming otherwise?
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Ad Hominem
Ad hominem against themselves…
But sometimes you gotta call a spade a spade. If you think Putin will finish after a victory in Ukraine you must never have opened a history book in your life.
So if you hate Putin so much - then why don’t you go and fight him yourself? Why do you want millions of Ukrainians to die instead of you, for your goals? How can you think you have a moral high ground supporting a genocide?
That has got to be the dumbest thing I’ve read in a while.
Would you like to explain what’s exactly dumb about that?
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what an amazing counterargument you’ve mustered there
So, wanting my family that is trapped in Ukraine to stay alive makes me a Russian loyalist? How so?