Quite a few posts about selecting a distro to use. Maybe it’s time to make that link a little more prominent?

  • throwawayish@lemmy.ml
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    10 months ago

    ADDENDUM:

    Alright, let's get to the elephant in the room (Distrochooser's questions).

    I’ll go over every single question and offer my feedback.

    1. Software: Use case: This is one of the better questions. But, unfortunately, not without its faults. For one, it somehow thinks that “I want to use Linux for anonymous web browsing.” and “I prefer a distribution which is supported by game publishers.” is somehow mutually exclusive. The only way this would make any sense at all is if somehow “anonymous web browsing” implies strict adherence to Tails or QubesOS and their guidelines. But since when is it not possible to boot up a Whonix VM on any ordinary distro for anonymous browsing, while Valve’s Proton handles everything on the gaming side of things. Furthermore, the inclusion of both “I want to execute all programs in an isolated environments.” and “I want to use Linux for anonymous web browsing.” on the very first question seems as if the audience that has watched Mr. Robot are somehow treated like first-class citizens, while I thought this intended to be useful for the more general newbie. This also somehow implies that Linux is for the h4ck0rs or something. It would make a lot more sense to pose a question like that after the security sensibility has been measured first. Why is this even the first question? Wouldn’t it make more sense to know what hardware is targeted in the first place? Verdict: Fine question, but needs work.
    2. Computer knowledge: This question somehow implies that knowing your ways around a computer is better or something for when you want to use Linux. Why? Is it even important to know if one is adept with Windows or macOS before they use Linux? Aren’t most people more accustomed to mobiles OSes anyways? If anything, I would argue that preconceived notions on how other desktop OSes work might be detrimental. Verdict: Pointless.
    3. Linux and you: This should be useful, right? Well…, didn’t we already settle on the fact that we wanted this for new users? So then what does it add if we know they’re complete strangers to Linux or (instead) have used it once like 5 years ago? Verdict: Pointless.
    4. Installation: Presets: Assuming that “I want to choose the settings by myself” and “I want to configure as much as possible using graphical applications” are the same except for how the former is more akin to an archinstall while the latter is basically the same but with a GUI, then for the new user we would always want the GUI-based, right? Alright, as for the choice that remains… I actually don’t know why either one would be necessarily preferred over the other. Being able to choose sounds good, but what actually do we get to choose? This question is honestly too vague for me without grabbing any installer with it. I wonder if you think the same… Verdict: I, personally, don’t understand the use (case) or what it tries to achieve. Pointless.
    5. Hardware support: The single best question on the list. I would argue the possibility should be explored in which something akin to a hardware probe should be implored in order to dismiss a huge bulk of the distros simply for not being well-optimized for the hardware. Verdict: MVP, while it’s already useful in its current iteration, I do think it deserves more work before it can be actually useful for most people.
    6. Source for help: I guess this question tries to take into account the dynamic between how user interactions happen with on one hand well-documented projects with a small and non-vocal user base, while on the other hand we have projects that aren’t well-documented but depend on user participation to bridge the gap. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is yet another artifact from the times in which the “RTFM”-reply was to be expected for asking a stupid question. The ‘meta’ has changed so much since that this question simply seems outdated and doesn’t deserve to be on the list. For beginners, we should always encourage the use of distros with both an excellent (or at least sub-par) documentation and a lively, vocal, active and helpful community. Verdict: Pointless.
    7. User experience: At best, it’s an artifact of when ElementaryOS actually was a thing and rightfully deserved to be mentioned in recommendation lists. However, at the other end of the spectrum this is a false and misleading dichotomy between GNOME (and GNOME-like DEs) and KDE Plasma (and KDE-like DEs). Honestly, it’s an insult to both GNOME and KDE Plasma (and most DEs for that matter) to be compared to macOS and Windows respectively. And I haven’t even gone over how it affects oversimplification and the resulting false expectations. Don’t get me wrong, I think that -conceptually- asking for how one would like to interact with their system is very important. And if anything, exploring DEs like GNOME, KDE Plasma, Cinnamon and Xfce (etc) is one of the most important steps a new user can take in deciding which distro they should pick. But instead of asking a question like that, we should instead put our efforts into making a test distro of sorts in which one can easily explore different DEs. I’m sure something like that already exists or can simply be achieved through using a bunch of ISOs and Ventoy. But I digress… FWIW, I even saw in your post history that you made the same analogy, which just shows how misleading it is if even a veteran user for 15 years can be misled. Verdict: Pointless. But, conceptually, deserves a lot more love.
    8. Distributions: Price: Why is this even included? Yes, I’m aware that Zorin OS Pro exists. But this, by itself, doesn’t justify the inclusion of this question. Verdict: Pointless.
    9. Distributions: Scope: Does it even make sense to ask a newbie if they would like to choose their own basic programs? I think this question has potential, but requires a precursory question in order for it to be unlocked after it has been determined the user is in fact a ‘tweaker’. Otherwise, this question doesn’t hold any value. Furthermore, Distrochooser isn’t even ‘smart’ enough to know that minimal installers for Fedora and openSUSE exist for those that seek more freedom in what is installed on their systems… Verdict: Pointless, unless newbie also (somehow) happens to be a ‘tweaker’.
    10. Distributions: Ideology: For the Libre distros; sure, let’s overwhelm the new user with this as well /s. Verdict: Pointless.
    11. Distributions: Privacy: I think this question is fine. I think it needs a couple of gentle touches to be actually useful, but there’s potential and it deserves its place. Especially considering the amount of people that actually gravitate towards Linux for privacy concerns. Verdict: Fine question, but deserves some gentle touches.
    12. Administration: Any new user should be able to install software from something that looks like a storefront AND needs to educate themselves on how the terminal could be used to that effect. sudo apt/dnf/zipper install name-software shouldn’t be too much to ask. Verdict: Pointless.
    13. Software: Updates: Good question. The conclusions Distrochooser takes from this are laughable, but it doesn’t undermine that it’s a good question. Verdict: Fine question, needs work.

    Alright, so let’s make up the score:

    • Deserve to be on the list: 3
    • Pointless: 8
    • The hardware probe should be explored to take over the function of hardware specifics (or anything that’s similarly effective)
    • Finally, the question about User experience should be reworked to implore the user to try a bunch of different Desktop Environments.

    As you should be aware, I wasn’t as fire-y in the second half as I was in the first. This might be related to tiredness etc. Regardless, as it stands Distrochooser asks 8 questions too many that are not only pointless, but for their presence they also are misleading; thus they’re ultimately bad. Two questions deserve a lot more love for what they’re capable to bring to the table and one might argue that their current presence is nothing but a disservice to them. Finally, the remaining 3 questions… Surely, we should be able to ask those through a bot/template, right? Wouldn’t that be a lot better and more efficient?

    And we haven’t even touched upon the myriad of questions that should be asked instead. Security vs Convenience? Which software they intend to use and if they’ve been able to actually find alternatives for those that simply aren’t supported on Linux? Automatic upgrades in the background vs deliberate updates?[3] Etc…


    1. Of course if the user even intends to use a distro that’s not ‘stable’ like how Debian Stable is ‘stable’.
    • onlinepersona@programming.devOP
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      10 months ago

      Thanks for the thoughtful response, but I disagree with a lot of things you said. I could quote everything I disagree with and write a paragraph, however it would be a meaningless endeavor as a moderator looking at the post would probably decide against adding distrochooser to the sidebar - regardless of my opinions.

      Cheers

      CC BY-NC-SA 4.0

      P.S thanks for teaching me a new thing: XY problem :)

      • throwawayish@lemmy.ml
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        10 months ago

        Alright, let’s first deal with unfinished business.

        DistroWatch as useful as statista.com for suggesting your next travel destination. If you had to travel somewhere and had a list of criteria, but didn’t want to spend all day researching, would you go to a travel agent or open an encyclopedia?

        I agree that DistroWatch is very useful as a more general resource rather than whatever you think Distrochooser is capable of. However, similar to DistroSea, it provides excellent information for anyone that is more interested in a specific distribution. Especially the reviews (by both the site maintainer(s) and visitors) are especially very valuable and the closest thing we have to an aggregated user reviews for distros. For good measure, I’m talking about the content of the reviews not the numerical representation.

        but I disagree with a lot of things you said.

        I’m so stoked to read these. I genuinely mean this btw*; every time someone informs me on why they disagree with me is an opportunity for me to learn new stuff.

        I could quote everything I disagree with and write a paragraph

        Please do. I mean it.

        however it would be a meaningless endeavor as a moderator looking at the post would probably decide against adding distrochooser to the sidebar - regardless of my opinions.

        This is very defeatist of you, though. And FWIW something which I didn’t expect from you. If you can even make (just) one person (in this case, perhaps me) learn something new, then that should be worth the effort. As you should be aware by now, I’m a lot more active on Lemmy than I should 😅, but this also means that having me (or anyone for that matter) be on your side might just be the thing you need to have this succeed eventually.