Wait and see is not ignoring anything though, and have not read a single argument against it. Defederation can happen at any time for any reason in the future, why would you preemptively exclude a potential for ActivityPub to get major recognition?
I’m not excluding the possibility an EEE attempt, and meta’s track record definitely shows they will try. But people using ActivityPub right now won’t stop because a company forked it into their own standard, we are here specifically for the exact opposite. Meta literally has zero influence on any of us, if anything it’s the exact opposite.
Also “learning from history” is a weak argument, every server admin as the possibility to defederate at any moment. When even the slightest misstep is placed, everyone defederates and Meta will live in their own little federated world, boo fucking hoo.
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish, is a strategy tech companies (and a lot more outside of tech as well) have used to use existing open standard and over time slowly add, adapt and finally take over those standards.
It’s a genuine concern this might happen to ActivityPub and Lemmy by extension by Meta, who is integrating ActivityPub as we speak.
Federating with a 10x larger entity that has a ton of very well known names on their list is going to dwarf anything that the fediverse so far has to offer. I‘m not saying in quality but definitely in quantity.
The argument is sound because its the exact same that happens with heroin. Your brain gets flooded with dopamine, you feel as happy as you have never felt in your life and likely will never feel again. The withdrawal symptoms are reported to be cruel. The reason is that „healthy“ amounts of dopamine just dont cut it anymore.
The same happens to people quitting big corpo „social“ media. I felt it and I have read of dozens who felt it as well (Obviously not as hard as heroin but the same mechanic). Now I‘m off the proverbial needle and meta federating is just going to bring us back to old habits. Endless, partly divisive content, potential for pushing ads with the posts and using our reactions for profiling.
Like the frog in the kettle we wont get dystopia tomorrow but like disney pushing their prices 50%, we get it eventually, bit by bit.
If meta ever defederates or limits the capabilities of fediverse instances, thousands of (again) hooked addicts will flock back to them. It’s literally obvious if you have any experience with addiction.
Also, we’ve had this discussion with covid, with climate change, with lgbtq rights, abortion… can we maybe start seeing the pattern here? Its always „not that bad“ while some are abusing and exploiting others and those who call it out have the „woke virus“ and are called fearmongers.
Fearmongering is if the media or the government does it, not people who are actually there using the stuff and suffering under things. That is called asking others for help/to understand.
If Meta/threads sees a way to cram ads into their instance(s), they will. If they offer money to others to put ads on their instances, they will. If they make rules or other demands of those making money - like no defederating from Meta/Threads, or requiring federating with other corporate instances, they will. On top of that, you’re going to get people drawn into the fediverse, like influencers, political spammers, more bots, and anyone else that follows that type of social media. Coders will start writing corporate-friendly instance code that will allow individuals (like influencers) to spin up profitable instances quickly that tie right into the corporateverse.
EEE will happen. We can argue about defederating from these corporate instances, but it’s going to be a running retreat.
Maybe hyperbolic. Maybe not. If, of course, if meta/threads finds the fediverse profitable.
I really enjoyed reading this although it is quite dystopian. Very well put. Thank you.
You know that someone with the ability to write like this could always write to the guy who founded mastodon for example (who apparently is on the hype train himself, who knows, maybe he has been paid already. But I got no evidence).
I‘m actually suspecting a lot of the „wait & see“ peeps to be paid actors or „true believers“ that already have a threads account and are working for the takeover.
I’m pretty cynical. I’m a huge sci-fi fan, and enjoy everything from Star Trek, to The Expanse, to William Gibson’s novels. P K Dick, too.
You want to know which futuristic reality they projected is the one in the lead? I can tell you it’s not the gleaming white space stations with hundreds of thousands of humans peacefully engaged in furthering knowledge and exploration.
Nope.
It’s the despotic corporatocracy with the token ineffective government winning. The corporations rule all. Ever read Jennifer Government? Yeah, we’re headed for Gibson’s Sprawl and disparity in a hurry…well, if Climate Change doesn’t get us all first.
So then explain to me, how exactly does this impact you? What about you block the meta instance yourself? You will not see any threads content and will continue to use lemmy/ActivityPub in literally the exact same way.
If corporations get their hooks into the fediverse it will be like putting out fires. Plenty of people out there willing to sacrifice what the fediverse is for a few bucks. I don’t want Threads/Meta to even get a toehold, that shit’s poison.
Do you know how federation works? Because if you did you’d know that ‘corportions get their hooks into the fediverse’ does not mean anything. Defederation and forking of the source code is a click away, the reason lemmy exists is to move away from corporations. Contradicting that would just spawn a new lemmy federation.
Did you read what I wrote? Are you just being stubborn about human nature? Don’t insult me by implying I don’t understand this stuff at least at the surface level. All I’m painting is a potential future, and that future is depended on corporations finding the fediverse worth the effort. If they don’t, NBD. If they do, I can assure you they will grind away at what the fediverse is until it’s shaped like what they want, federation be damned. Like I said, maybe you can carve out a corpo-free area, but that depends on the instance operators wanting to put out the effort and money while corps are potentially waving cash in their direction. Humans are shortsighted and greedy.
Corporations will try ofcourse that’s what they do, but denying meta federation from the getgo goes against the philosophy of federation. The points you’re making NEED to be made, we NEED to observe how meta handles it and how all services are affected. We can decide from there whether your doom scenario holds any merrit whatsoever.
dwarf anything that the fediverse so far has to offer
You curate your own feed, if you don’t like seeing posts from that instance, then block it yourself. Like with NSFW instances, I don’t see any in my feed, don’t like them? Block them. For new users there will be instances who have defederated and those who have not. Why should your dopamine addiction be my problem? Advocating for every instance to defederate preemptively is more than counter productive, it’s the very definition of fear mongering.
So no, your argument does not hold up.
If meta ever defederates or limits the capabilities of fediverse instances, thousands of (again) hooked addicts will flock back to them. It’s literally obvious if you have any experience with addiction.
Then we will defederate, people wanting that algorithmic dopamine hit are already getting it, and people in virtual rehab will know to block anything they want.
There is still no argument against the wait and see approach.
If you really want to compare social media to drug use, how does the need for decriminalisation fit into this? Don’t limit what people can or can’t do because you fear the outcome. Let everyone (ie users and admins) decide for themselves which platforms they want to see, and give them the tools to do so.
You probably see that you changed gears now, right?
I answered your question. That is why you should care and not jump on the bandwagon.
Just for completeness: i never said its completely the same. I said (and have proof) that social media can be and very often is addictive and keeping a profiting company out isnt keeping the drugs from people. Its cutting the dealer out. Basically the same as legalization if you will.
I agree with the premise that Meta is a horrible company and we pay close attention on how its federation progresses. I still have not seen a single argument that holds any weight, from you as well, against the wait and see approach.
“Because it’s the right thing to do” is not an argument, it’s a statement without anything to back you up. What is right is subjective to everyone.
Also, I have not changed gears, and still firmly believe there’s a lot to be gained. Any concerns you have, I already answered. Anyone has a place in the fediverse, because its core principle is exactly that. Don’t agree? Then block the fucking instance.
I have to agree with the other commenter now who said you’re likely astroturfing. That or you have significant issues with empathy because the amount of dismissal you show towards other peoples concerns is staggering. Its obvious also from the lack of counterarguments you bring that no amount of sources, evidence or discussion would make you consider an alternative.
I would pity you but I cant say if you’re not actually paid for what you do so I will just end this conversation now. At least other people are not only hearing your crooked perspective but also some sound arguments.
Exhibit A: see how Google idly fucks with Firefox by getting it to run around in circles the way you might idly taunt your friends cat with a laser pointer
Probably talking about how there was code found in YouTube that makes playing videos slower on Firefox. It was supposedly a bug but I believe this happened recently along with Google declaring war on ad blockers. So obviously a lot of people believe it wasn’t just a bug.
The code specifically looked for “Firefox” in your UA and started a 5 second wait timer. There’s no way it was a bug, you don’t just add idle waits into your website.
I don’t know if they had some specific thing on their mind, but generally Firefox pretty much needs to do whatever Google wants with the web standards, because Firefox is close to becoming irrelevant (which is a damn shame, I’ve been using that browser for forever).
How exactly? Let’s say they follow the EEE strategy and eventually drop support for ActivityPub. Then it’s exactly the same as it is now. People bring up XMPP but nobody wanted to use XMPP the majority of people were using Google Talk or Facebook Messenger. By using the Fediverse you are already explicitly choosing not to use Facebook or X or Reddit. The large social media companies already have larger user bases and more content and if people here wanted that they’d leave already.
People bring up XMPP but nobody wanted to use XMPP the majority of people were using Google Talk or Facebook Messenger.
Do you realise how hypocritical this is? Using the fediverse is effectively using XMPP in this analogy.
Just compare the 100 million users of Threads vs the 1.5 million MAU of the fediverse.
Threads is the corporate-backed proprietary service (Google talk) and the fediverse is the small network of federated servers hosted mainly by volunteers (XMPP).
By using the Fediverse you are already explicitly choosing not to use Facebook or X or Reddit.
By using XMPP you were explicitly not choosing Google Talk or Facebook Messenger. How is this any different?
The large social media companies already have larger user bases and more content and if people here wanted that they’d leave already.
XMPP users said the same about XMPP. And it was true, to a certain extent. The federated XMPP network is alive to this day, I’m in a few chat rooms and have a few contacts there.
By using XMPP you were explicitly not choosing Google Talk or Facebook Messenger. How is this any different?
Because the majority of XMPP users were Google Talk and Facebook Messenger users. Fediverse users are explicitly using the Fediverse.
XMPP users said the same about XMPP. And it was true, to a certain extent. The federated XMPP network is alive to this day, I’m in a few chat rooms and have a few contacts there.
Aren’t you agreeing with me here? Thats my point effectively nothing changes if Facebook drops ActivityPub.
Removed by mod
Wait and see is not ignoring anything though, and have not read a single argument against it. Defederation can happen at any time for any reason in the future, why would you preemptively exclude a potential for ActivityPub to get major recognition?
I’m not excluding the possibility an EEE attempt, and meta’s track record definitely shows they will try. But people using ActivityPub right now won’t stop because a company forked it into their own standard, we are here specifically for the exact opposite. Meta literally has zero influence on any of us, if anything it’s the exact opposite.
Also “learning from history” is a weak argument, every server admin as the possibility to defederate at any moment. When even the slightest misstep is placed, everyone defederates and Meta will live in their own little federated world, boo fucking hoo.
What is EEE? Google insists it’s either an expression or glee, or Electrical and Electronics Engineering.
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish, is a strategy tech companies (and a lot more outside of tech as well) have used to use existing open standard and over time slowly add, adapt and finally take over those standards.
It’s a genuine concern this might happen to ActivityPub and Lemmy by extension by Meta, who is integrating ActivityPub as we speak.
Thanks for the explanation. I can see how this could be a concern, especially with the historical actions of every tech giant, Facebook included
Here you have some arguments then:
Federating with a 10x larger entity that has a ton of very well known names on their list is going to dwarf anything that the fediverse so far has to offer. I‘m not saying in quality but definitely in quantity.
The argument is sound because its the exact same that happens with heroin. Your brain gets flooded with dopamine, you feel as happy as you have never felt in your life and likely will never feel again. The withdrawal symptoms are reported to be cruel. The reason is that „healthy“ amounts of dopamine just dont cut it anymore.
The same happens to people quitting big corpo „social“ media. I felt it and I have read of dozens who felt it as well (Obviously not as hard as heroin but the same mechanic). Now I‘m off the proverbial needle and meta federating is just going to bring us back to old habits. Endless, partly divisive content, potential for pushing ads with the posts and using our reactions for profiling.
Like the frog in the kettle we wont get dystopia tomorrow but like disney pushing their prices 50%, we get it eventually, bit by bit.
If meta ever defederates or limits the capabilities of fediverse instances, thousands of (again) hooked addicts will flock back to them. It’s literally obvious if you have any experience with addiction.
Also, we’ve had this discussion with covid, with climate change, with lgbtq rights, abortion… can we maybe start seeing the pattern here? Its always „not that bad“ while some are abusing and exploiting others and those who call it out have the „woke virus“ and are called fearmongers.
Fearmongering is if the media or the government does it, not people who are actually there using the stuff and suffering under things. That is called asking others for help/to understand.
You forgot profit.
If Meta/threads sees a way to cram ads into their instance(s), they will. If they offer money to others to put ads on their instances, they will. If they make rules or other demands of those making money - like no defederating from Meta/Threads, or requiring federating with other corporate instances, they will. On top of that, you’re going to get people drawn into the fediverse, like influencers, political spammers, more bots, and anyone else that follows that type of social media. Coders will start writing corporate-friendly instance code that will allow individuals (like influencers) to spin up profitable instances quickly that tie right into the corporateverse.
EEE will happen. We can argue about defederating from these corporate instances, but it’s going to be a running retreat.
Maybe hyperbolic. Maybe not. If, of course, if meta/threads finds the fediverse profitable.
I really enjoyed reading this although it is quite dystopian. Very well put. Thank you.
You know that someone with the ability to write like this could always write to the guy who founded mastodon for example (who apparently is on the hype train himself, who knows, maybe he has been paid already. But I got no evidence).
I‘m actually suspecting a lot of the „wait & see“ peeps to be paid actors or „true believers“ that already have a threads account and are working for the takeover.
I’m pretty cynical. I’m a huge sci-fi fan, and enjoy everything from Star Trek, to The Expanse, to William Gibson’s novels. P K Dick, too.
You want to know which futuristic reality they projected is the one in the lead? I can tell you it’s not the gleaming white space stations with hundreds of thousands of humans peacefully engaged in furthering knowledge and exploration.
Nope.
It’s the despotic corporatocracy with the token ineffective government winning. The corporations rule all. Ever read Jennifer Government? Yeah, we’re headed for Gibson’s Sprawl and disparity in a hurry…well, if Climate Change doesn’t get us all first.
I feel like I would like to read those but 1984 already made me wanna puke so I might have to pass.
Still, I very much get what you mean.
So then explain to me, how exactly does this impact you? What about you block the meta instance yourself? You will not see any threads content and will continue to use lemmy/ActivityPub in literally the exact same way.
If corporations get their hooks into the fediverse it will be like putting out fires. Plenty of people out there willing to sacrifice what the fediverse is for a few bucks. I don’t want Threads/Meta to even get a toehold, that shit’s poison.
Do you know how federation works? Because if you did you’d know that ‘corportions get their hooks into the fediverse’ does not mean anything. Defederation and forking of the source code is a click away, the reason lemmy exists is to move away from corporations. Contradicting that would just spawn a new lemmy federation.
Did you read what I wrote? Are you just being stubborn about human nature? Don’t insult me by implying I don’t understand this stuff at least at the surface level. All I’m painting is a potential future, and that future is depended on corporations finding the fediverse worth the effort. If they don’t, NBD. If they do, I can assure you they will grind away at what the fediverse is until it’s shaped like what they want, federation be damned. Like I said, maybe you can carve out a corpo-free area, but that depends on the instance operators wanting to put out the effort and money while corps are potentially waving cash in their direction. Humans are shortsighted and greedy.
Corporations will try ofcourse that’s what they do, but denying meta federation from the getgo goes against the philosophy of federation. The points you’re making NEED to be made, we NEED to observe how meta handles it and how all services are affected. We can decide from there whether your doom scenario holds any merrit whatsoever.
You curate your own feed, if you don’t like seeing posts from that instance, then block it yourself. Like with NSFW instances, I don’t see any in my feed, don’t like them? Block them. For new users there will be instances who have defederated and those who have not. Why should your dopamine addiction be my problem? Advocating for every instance to defederate preemptively is more than counter productive, it’s the very definition of fear mongering.
So no, your argument does not hold up.
Then we will defederate, people wanting that algorithmic dopamine hit are already getting it, and people in virtual rehab will know to block anything they want.
There is still no argument against the wait and see approach.
The same reason our taxes pay for mental health clinics, addiction therapies, methadone clinics and so on…
Because it is the right thing to do.
and secondly, because its not my problem. I‘m just aware of it. This article explains it well. There is a study about it but I can’t find it rn. https://www.marketplace.org/2023/10/10/new-research-quantifies-why-you-want-to-quit-social-media-but-cant/
If you really want to compare social media to drug use, how does the need for decriminalisation fit into this? Don’t limit what people can or can’t do because you fear the outcome. Let everyone (ie users and admins) decide for themselves which platforms they want to see, and give them the tools to do so.
You probably see that you changed gears now, right?
I answered your question. That is why you should care and not jump on the bandwagon.
Just for completeness: i never said its completely the same. I said (and have proof) that social media can be and very often is addictive and keeping a profiting company out isnt keeping the drugs from people. Its cutting the dealer out. Basically the same as legalization if you will.
I agree with the premise that Meta is a horrible company and we pay close attention on how its federation progresses. I still have not seen a single argument that holds any weight, from you as well, against the wait and see approach.
“Because it’s the right thing to do” is not an argument, it’s a statement without anything to back you up. What is right is subjective to everyone.
Also, I have not changed gears, and still firmly believe there’s a lot to be gained. Any concerns you have, I already answered. Anyone has a place in the fediverse, because its core principle is exactly that. Don’t agree? Then block the fucking instance.
I have to agree with the other commenter now who said you’re likely astroturfing. That or you have significant issues with empathy because the amount of dismissal you show towards other peoples concerns is staggering. Its obvious also from the lack of counterarguments you bring that no amount of sources, evidence or discussion would make you consider an alternative.
I would pity you but I cant say if you’re not actually paid for what you do so I will just end this conversation now. At least other people are not only hearing your crooked perspective but also some sound arguments.
What is this referring to?
Probably talking about how there was code found in YouTube that makes playing videos slower on Firefox. It was supposedly a bug but I believe this happened recently along with Google declaring war on ad blockers. So obviously a lot of people believe it wasn’t just a bug.
The code specifically looked for “Firefox” in your UA and started a 5 second wait timer. There’s no way it was a bug, you don’t just add idle waits into your website.
I don’t know if they had some specific thing on their mind, but generally Firefox pretty much needs to do whatever Google wants with the web standards, because Firefox is close to becoming irrelevant (which is a damn shame, I’ve been using that browser for forever).
Also, Google is a (the?) major source of funding for Mozilla, so they have a lot of clout with them.
How exactly? Let’s say they follow the EEE strategy and eventually drop support for ActivityPub. Then it’s exactly the same as it is now. People bring up XMPP but nobody wanted to use XMPP the majority of people were using Google Talk or Facebook Messenger. By using the Fediverse you are already explicitly choosing not to use Facebook or X or Reddit. The large social media companies already have larger user bases and more content and if people here wanted that they’d leave already.
Do you realise how hypocritical this is? Using the fediverse is effectively using XMPP in this analogy.
Just compare the 100 million users of Threads vs the 1.5 million MAU of the fediverse.
Threads is the corporate-backed proprietary service (Google talk) and the fediverse is the small network of federated servers hosted mainly by volunteers (XMPP).
By using XMPP you were explicitly not choosing Google Talk or Facebook Messenger. How is this any different?
XMPP users said the same about XMPP. And it was true, to a certain extent. The federated XMPP network is alive to this day, I’m in a few chat rooms and have a few contacts there.
Because the majority of XMPP users were Google Talk and Facebook Messenger users. Fediverse users are explicitly using the Fediverse.
Aren’t you agreeing with me here? Thats my point effectively nothing changes if Facebook drops ActivityPub.